OPINION: There are as many reasons for Brexit as there are Brexiteers

By definition, Brexiteers will have multiple motives for rejecting EU membership

mesnipMost of the arguments for and against Brexit are based on statistics: migration, trade levels, taxes, gdp, currency values, banking, recession, investment and all the rest of it. When I voted to stay inside the EEC as it then was in 1975, I remember only the ideals of greater cultural understanding and economic interdependence as solid, practical ways to avoid further bloodletting after two World Wars. My views have not changed: but since then, the nature of the “European Project” has changed from mutual communitarianism to globalist federalism.

Elsewhere, I have enumerated nearly 200 varied rationales for Brexit based on considerations that are Benthamite, not globalist – ie, individualist not systemic. I am for individualism with a responsibility to the community…not the SuperState determined to crush the responsible individual. Because I desire the sovereignty of the community of individuals, I recognise that there will be hundreds of tailored reasons why they’d want to leave the one-size-fits-all totalitarian State. This confuses some people as to my position. What follows is the gist of a reply to one such earlier today.


NOBODY knows the fiscal and economic consequences of leaving….although speaking for myself, as we have an EU trade deficit, it is very hard to see how we can suffer more than, say, Germany must from Brexit.

All that said, however, my reasons for wanting to leave have nothing whatever to do with trade, fiscality, economics, currencies or anything remotely connected to Mammon. In fact, I for one don’t care that much about ‘sovereignty’ so much as having control over our destiny as social citizens. If the EU reverted to the EEC and we could devolve more power down to communities, that too would suit me fine.

No, I want to leave the EU because
1. The goal is undemocratic federalism, and I regard that as the quintessence of evil
2. The bastards in charge show not an atom of an iota of willingness to reform or change, and only an idiot could fail to see that…..for example, most of the Labour Party
3. We have bastards in government here in the UK and another lot equally bad running Juncker’s EC and Schauble’s eurogroupe…a gathering, I might add, with less legality as a power than Smith after UDI or the bastards who replaced him: if we Brexit, Camerlot will fall and Brussels will be neutered
4. I have close links with Greece going back nearly 50 years and I despise the Brussels Bastards for what they have done to Hellas
5. I am a mutual capitalist communitarian, not a socialist or neoliberal Big SuperState bastard: as far as I’m concerned, the Referendum position taken by UK Conservatives and Labour is no better than the Nazi-Soviet pact
6. I believe in taking ALL the monied influence out of politics. I believe the only practical way to do that is via small communities. I deplore everything that globalism, multinational big business, multiculturalism, TTIP and bourse finance stand for. A vote to Remain is so obviously a vote for more of that – and the certain chaos that goes with it – I would only consider doing so if Bernie Sanders became the EU’s elected President and Viktor Orban its elected Prime Minister, having both been elected on the same ticket – the wholesale destruction of every dystopian federalist ideal everywhere, and an end to all colonialism – economic, cultural or otherwise.

Perhaps this might help you and others understand my philosophy, and why I left England three years ago.

Perhaps also I should change The Slog mantra from IABATO (It’s all bollocks and that’s official) to TABATO (They’re all Bastards and that’s Obvious).

We shall see. On verra. Que sera sera. Wir Werden sehen.

Connected at The Slog: The Orwellian State stamping out individual will

49 thoughts on “OPINION: There are as many reasons for Brexit as there are Brexiteers

  1. Thanks for your relentless in-puts over the years M. Ward, but the referendum debate has surely now been exhausted. For the ‘undecided’ there’s plenty of detailed info across the Internet from all perspectives. Time now to move on to other important topics, n’est-ce pas?

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  2. Now I can’t get this tune out of my head!

    🎶You say “IABATO” 🎶
    🎶 I say “TABATO” 🎶

    🎼😁🎹🎻🎺🎷<-tiny orchestra

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  3. John D, no, need to keep it up, don’t want to fall at the last hurdle, Tories a sneaky lot. Not over til in the bag Jun 24!

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  4. Liz – the outcome will be decided by the tabloid readers who are unlikely to be frequent visitors to this site. I think there’s a danger of the electorate falling into a catatonic trance from over-exposure and boredom. This is not what direct democracy should be about. It’s been a very poorly run campaign on all sides. Whether Remain or Brexit, one should respect the other person’s view-point (especially since the divide seems to be approx. 50-50) and concentrate on practical issues, as I believe John W has attempted to do. The more emotional the debate becomes, which it has, the less rational it becomes. But the MSM thrives on hysteria so the country at large is unlikely to get a balanced argument. It works well for ‘Britain’s Got Talent’ but not for such a complex issue as this. Anyhow, those are my thoughts at this stage of the ‘game’. .

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  5. “the ideals of greater cultural understanding and economic interdependence…”
    And this is how the EU still manages to pass itself off to a lot of people as the embodiment of all the noble ideals; when in fact it is a bloated parasite lazily feeding on the good will of European people.

    Liked by 2 people

  6. John D

    Is it just the British or do the Californians do their Prop votes better and do the Swiss do their Referenda better??

    Not that California is covering itself in glory currently, what with its attempts to render climate change skeptics criminals and liable to pay damages for questioning the Holy Green Book.

    But those are two places in the developed world with well-established regular referenda to ask whether it is the Referendum Concept or the British Way of Doing Referenda or simply the British Population which is the problem…..

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  7. quite impressed with camerons new stance, legs wide apart. authority! osborne the same. confidence! theresa may not so sure, nostalgia maybe.

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  8. Global trade is in a downward spiral, this is not contentious; why is it so? Because we have adopted a financialised economic model which must eventually make – is indeed visibly making – it’s own existence unsupportable. Nowhere in the lexicon of Remain scare rhetoric is it recognised that the writing is on the wall, writ large, for the European economies which have signed their own death warrant with the ridiculous euro; the astronomical levels of debt are insoluble and guarantee collapse sooner or later. The scare agenda is therefore selling something which does not and cannot exist under such circumstances: economic stability. This will only ever change through catharsis, for which the very opposite of the hidebound anti-democratic model of the EU is an inevitable necessity. The wasteful, parasitic nature of the EC dooms it to becoming just another failed ‘good idea’ in the long history of good intentions which the human race romantically attaches itself to from time to time – which is all very well and good, as long as failure is accepted when it presents itself, as it always does. It always does because stasis, which denies the passage of time, can only obstruct catharsis. Clinging to the wreckage of a sinking ship may, on the surface, appear to be a means of survival; however, as the ship slips below the surface – and this one is quite undeniably doing so – that survival becomes less and less likely, and finally impossible. It is of course eminently more sensible to swim away and allow the dynamic freedom of ideas, which have always saved us in the past, to reassert themselves and guide us to another place where sharks and sinking ships are not so numerous.

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  9. rtj – you make interesting sociological points. It’s probably a mix of all that you mention. The English establishment probably doesn’t think that – once a GE has taken place – ‘ordinary’ people have the intelligence or (worse stiil) the right to have a say in routine policy matters. It’s a byproduct of our Victorian voting system and maybe even hierarchical class prejudice. Albeit the modern co-operative movement was founded in Rochdale, we are not a consensual nation by instinct – which is exploited by seekers of power. Clearly this culture will eventually have to change as the electorate becomes more informed and distrustful of ‘those in charge’.

    I can envisage a future when we could dramatically reduce the number of MPs and citizens would routinely vote on pre-published policy agenda using their bank cards. We urgently need a new constitution that is fit for purpose in the 21st century. Of course, the upper chamber would need to be elected and reduced to maybe 100. The US has just 535 voting members of Congress, compared to our 1,452 (650 elected MPs + 802 non-elected Lords) to govern a country 1/5th the size!!

    The other countries you mention have different political traditions which possibly make referenda less traumatic – not that they don’t have their own issues, notably in the US which has now become so finacially corrupt it’s difficult to equate the word ‘democracy’ with their electoral shenanigans. The Swiss seem to have a much more mature and developed system, which has its roots back in the Middle Ages (http://direct-democracy.geschichte-schweiz.ch). It could provide a model for other countries. A book worth reading is Leopold Kohr’s ‘The Breakdown of Nations’ (1957).

    From a management perspective (i.e. to get a better result) it would have been wiser not to have rushed into this referendum so quickly, as Ed Milliband suggested. But it seems it was a political manifesto promise to woo UKIP supporters and perhaps DC never thought he’d actually have to deliver it. Who knows? In any event, it’s not proving to be the finest hour for a nation that exported the modern concept of parliamentary democracy to the world. We have rested on our historical laurels for too long and now need to play catch-up.

    Liked by 2 people

  10. Hiero

    As usual, we’re as one.

    There are times when I want to just shake some of my (genuinely close) friends on the Left, and say, “Look chums, if you were going to create Utopia, would you choose Homo sapiens as the raw material?”. At times since 1980 – with MPs of both Parties – as clients, socially or when giving evidence – I’ve wanted to say, “How did you reach this age without understanding anything about Man the social animal?’

    But we can spend 99.7% of each day denying the certainty of death, so we can deny anything. And what we tend to do is deny everything. Negative interest rates, Beijing throwing money at every stock that declines, the multiple failure of QE, the insanity of Abenomics, US debt, the unrepayability of Greek debt…onandonandon.

    This doesn’t make me a Hobbesian ‘Man is a brute, hit him a lot’, but it does make me what one might call ‘an empiricist with realistic aspirations’. I have for example seen some astonishing examples of reforming criminals with tough love.

    The dynamic freedom of ideas (even if it causes the average East Coast American pc ister to need 27 years of counselling) resonates with me totally: that freedom is what makes philosophy terrific, and ideology a prison.

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  11. John
    Is it me or is the Brexit campaign so shite that the only explanation is that it’s run by a trojan horse group of alleged Brexit’eers.

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  12. John, my dear

    There is nothing more liberating for any of us than to speak the truth as we apprehend it, and the excellent Slog provides a truly worthwhile opportunity. We must all sink beneath the waves eventually, let us at least try to do so with dignity whilst attempting to leave this mortal coil at least no worse than we found it.

    Liked by 3 people

  13. John D
    I do tend to agree with you; most will vote with bigoted tribal wallet, some with heart, a few with heart ruled by head.

    As a matter of interest, can you name me a more important topic than stopping 1984 in its tracks?

    That’s what I think Brexit is really about. But not everyone agrees. Trust me, it’s as boring to write about it day after day as it is to read the same arguments over and over.

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  14. One of the reason for my cynical nature as regards the Brexit campaign is that:
    1. No one went to prison for the 2008 financial collapse.
    2. No one has gone to jail for all the banking frauds that have come to light since 2008.
    3. We all know the the International Ponzi scheme WI’LL end.

    Why is there no dicussion about the financial meltdown that will happen that will make 2008 look like a walk in the park? Are they gonna feign ignorance? Or will WW3 start courtesy of dying American imperialism?

    TFS

    Liked by 2 people

  15. Well in my view it will be a pretty close vote, possibly “massaged” by the postal element, maybe from certain Labour inner city areas with traditional third world voting systems. Not sure i should say that but the truth hurts. But anyway within 1% or 2% either way. But don’t expect a clean vote.

    If it is “leave” we can expect years of procrastination and back sliding.

    If it is “remain” we can expect smug triumphalism followed by a crisis (next two years) as the EU implodes via a new and possibly more dangerous recession than 2008. Another vote? Depends…

    My feeling is that Mr Cameron has killed the Conservative Party (is that possible?) and will personally pay the price either way. I think he must know that by now. Hence the “go for broke strategy” which appears to pay lip service to “the law”.

    Anyway, the EU looks like it will unravel – c 40 to 50% of the populace don’t like it (see ZH) and another recession will create problems which cannot be managed by the ECB printing wooden dollars.

    A remain vote thus (IMHO) simply defers the decision. It will cost us more. Either way the UK is not in a good position wrt its continental pals (who appear to be threatening us if we vote to leave).

    Until recently my default position was to plan for a “stay” vote but not so sure now, i think “leave” is more likely. Given I live in and am attached to France now rather than the UK this has significant personal implications. Nevertheless I will be voting leave because I cannot see that the EU can be reformed or that I have any confidence in it – or its people or policies – ie Ukraine.

    My discussions with many ex-pats are not on that level. They are voting for no change as that is least painful. They think I am mad. Which is entirely possible!

    Liked by 2 people

  16. John –

    I fear 1984 is already with us. We’re attempting to shut the stable door too late. More scary than Orwell’s predictions are Aldous Huxley’s observations in his less read ‘Brave New World Revisited’ (1958) in which he feared his original fiction had already become fact. It is full of prescient statements. A favourite, among many, is: “Under the relentless thrust of accelerating over-population and increasing over-organization, and by means of ever more effective methods of mind-manipulation, the democracies will change their nature; the quaint old forms—elections, parliaments, Supreme Courts and all the rest—will remain. The underlying substance will be a new kind of non-violent totalitarianism. All the traditional names, all the hallowed slogans will remain exactly what they were in the good old days. Democracy and freedom will be the theme of every broadcast and editorial—but Democracy and freedom in a strictly Pickwickian sense. Meanwhile the ruling oligarchy and its highly trained elite of soldiers, policemen, thought-manufacturers and mind-manipulators will quietly run the show as they see fit.”

    As you’re an (ex) advertising guru I don’t need to elaborate further on the industrial scale of brain-washing that populations are subjected to. Suffice to quote some current stats for other readers. In 2016 the world-wide advertising spend is estimated to be in excess of $600 billion ($25 billion in the UK). Additionally, global market research revenues are worth around $45 billion and PR approx. $14 billion. That’s a shed-load of marbles, innit!

    Between them, Orwell + Huxley + J G Ballard pretty much got it right.

    For me it’s feels like being between a rock and a hard place. Or, as I read somewher today, it’s like asking a vegan to choose between a lamb or a pork chop. I’m more pessimistic than you and don’t see a vote for either Brexit or Remain as a clear solution to combatting the neo-liberal ‘Washington Consensus’ agenda. It’s going to take a lot more than a vote in this referendum to avoid impending dystopia. In a way it’s a bit of a side-show and a distraction from massive global issues, such as even a possible WW3. I really wish I could be more positive. But thanks anyhow for sharing all your wisdom over the years which is much appreciated and enjoyed.

    Liked by 3 people

  17. @John D

    I agree entirely. One of my (many) problems is the feeling of impotence caused by the reality of the dystopia created by the psychopaths/sociopaths in power over the past 50 years. My own past negligence in the face of their machinations is a constant source of guilt and I fear that our children will reap the whirlwind.

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  18. Oh, and what’s new.

    Prime Minister’s questions today: Jeremy Corbyn gets no response as to why Conservative Members of the European Parliament (MEPs) have blocked measures that would tackle tax avoidance.

    IS THIS THE BRITAIN YOU WANT TO LEAVE EUROPE TO BE FREE OF???

    Leaving Europe won’t change the fact that the British government is not there for the voters.

    Liked by 1 person

  19. Evening All,

    Well, I’ve already posted my vote, for me there is only one issue, which is can we remove the people who are making our laws? Everything flows from that one single issue.

    If we can’t then we are living in a dictatorship and are no better than N.Korea, China etc, is that what we are really prepared to live under?

    As JW has already said, one step at a time, we take control back and then sort out Westminster as step 2.

    Not that this is relevant to the above point, but the very idea that Britian and it’s population is incapable of running it’s own affairs and own economic policy and any other policy in a successful and equitable way is quite frankly ridiculous. Why do people have such a low opinion of themselves and their fellow Britons?

    I do believe however that Brexit is inevitable, it’s just a case of how much blood will be spilt, and I mean that in a literal sense. Leave now and minimise the pain, or leave in a very bloody fashion in a number of years when soft fascism becomes hard fascism and a significant proportion of the population take direct action against it.

    Finally, in no way do I advocate violence in any form, usually what you end up with is far worse than what you replaced. If you won’t fight when you can win peacefully when will you fight?

    Grow some balls, grow some self respect and vote leave.

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  20. Giving up Julia is what O’Brien wanted from Winston all along. His spirit broken, Winston is released to the outside world. He meets Julia but no longer feels anything for her. He has accepted the Party entirely and has learned to love Big Brother.

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  21. o’connor

    I interpret the ‘plot’ as being – women are now for decoration only and because men are being robbed by chemistry of their virility, they can devote 100% of their effort to the State.

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  22. Exactly Sherlock….
    This is why ‘Big Sister’ is extinct in the ‘Big Brother’ world. Only the elites control who is siring who in the future world, and with the most beautiful women.

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  23. They are indeed all bastards. The corporatist elite that swank around Brussels and hand down laws that we cannot repeal are running a repellant racket. Our Parliament is stuffed full of graspers and assorted shysters with the odd one or two upright and true citizens; but we can boot them out every five years and thus hold them to some sort of account. I am voting out and dam their eyes. Should Brexit carry the day and our pro Brussels Parliament refuse to pass the laws that sever the ties, then arthriticky as I am, I will protest outside Parliament even if I have to use both of my crutches.

    Liked by 3 people

  24. A totalitarian, neo-fascist, corporate super-state was always an evil idea.

    Ever sisnce corporal hitler invented it.

    It still is a bloody stupid idea.

    It will always be. No matter how many times they try or what disguise they use.

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  25. Without beating about the bush, the choice for any rational person is down to this.

    At what point do you effectively hand over YOUR sovereignty, that means you, into the hands of the most despicable lying corrupt crony set of filthy self serving politicians and bureaucrats to ever disgrace any public office.
    Name a single incorruptible proponent of this filthy cartel, from Ratjoy the lying corrupt Spanish disease, the unspeakable self confessed lying corrupt lush Junkface.
    Would I take orders from scum like these, pay taxes to feed these scum, without complaint, and even vote to sell the country my father, grandfather and before that helped build, am I so weak as to surrender it all to what can only be described as monstrous gargoyles and caricatures of what any reasonable person should expect, so weak, that I have no faith in mine and my country.s ability to prosper in the world without these sham pigs thieving my labor and taxes to feed their grotesque shenanigans, that the utter insanity criminality and corruption of the filthy draggy, in using taxpayers money now to curry favor and buy the support of every insolvent bankrupt corrupted and cronyism raddled corporation by using that taxpayer money and incessant printing of the pointless coupon or voucher pretending to be a currency, to clear and settle their debts,and then have the right of ordering me about.

    I will burn their children, I will bomb their institutions and I will kill them without mercy if they attempt to do that.
    This is war, make no mistake and I will defend myself as furiously as as anyone else would do faced with a Nazi storm trooper attack.

    The lying traitor camoron is asking you to surrender everything you have to these disgusting perverts.
    I consider anyone who votes remain to be an out and out traitor, not fit to be spat on.

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  26. The division and hate over this subject will linger long beyond the declared ‘result’.
    Sacrificial violence very possible. We have been robbed. Make no mistake.

    Liked by 1 person

  27. spike

    What do you suppose the East India Company was? The Hudson Bay Company, come to that??

    Oh no, corporal Hitler did not invent ‘totalitarian, neo-fascist, corporate super-state’. It was invented long before that. Cecil Rhodes was wildly in favour of such things too, as long as he was on the right side of it.

    In terms of the rights of the indigenous natives, the British Empire was totalitarian, neo-fascist, a corporate super-state.

    We, the British, utilised the concept long before Hitler’s mother’s mother even thought of creating him.

    And I very much doubt that we actually invented it either……..

    Liked by 1 person

  28. rtj1211 – they only take your rights if you don’t fight. It’s called the law of the jungle. You have to FIGHT with all means available to survive.
    In the name of THE QUEEN OF ENGLAND – forward with bayonets……………….

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  29. The elites of Brussels and their disciples are made of faceless straw and should be rotisseried over a hot flame of burning eu directives.

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  30. Glory days

    the reason I ask is because I’ve previously posted how the Scottish Referendum was rigged through the postal ballots.

    Since then Scottish ballot papers have had a unique reference number on the back but at last months govt elections the ballot paper had a bar code instead, easily seen when you folded your paper in half to put in the ballot box.

    At the Scottish ref we had a 96% turnout for postal ballots ( a world record – even higher than North Korea – I kid you not),
    So I fully expect something of the same in 2 weeks time, especially as there WILL BE NO EXIT POLL at 10 o’clock when voting is finished…..of course a pure co-incidence

    Anyway thanks for the reply

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  31. @ John Ward
    Here’s another excellent motive for leaving:
    http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2016-06-06/introducing-europes-frightening-new-tax-directive

    This is not just about Britain leaving, it is about collapsing the entire pack of cards! Britain has to succeed in leaving or we are all royally buggered.
    http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2016-06-08/beyond-brexit-favorable-opinion-eu-plunges-everywhere-especially-france

    Finally, if you want to know where all this is headed in the short term, look no further than the shenanigans taking place in the US. This one is a stormer!
    http://www.strategic-culture.org/news/2016/06/08/how-corrupt-america-is.html

    John, I would very much like to do a few beers with you. We are 100% on the same page and I live just down the road from you, more or less. How can we get in touch privately?

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  32. Just another point on the uselessness of the Brexit campaign and my cynical mind thinks ‘by design’.

    Why arn’t the Brexit campaigners mentioning this:

    http://johnhelmer.net/?p=15803

    Is it possible that the Politicians on both sides and especially the Brexiteers arn’t aware that the sanctions against Russia are deemed illegal by the European Court?

    How much money has been lost?

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  33. Also,

    Boris is a lover of the criminals in Canary Wharfe.

    If the Brexiteers win, America is gonna want a piece of Canary Wharfe criminal pie, and the first step will be to hit Canary Warfe with lawsuit after lawsuit.

    So which is it. Boris the Canary Wharfe lover or hater?

    TFS

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  34. “I am a mutual capitalist communitarian”, words are damn tricky creatures. What exactly is a mutual capitalist communitarian? John knows what he means, others require elaboration. I suspect that John believes in enterprise and not just the guys at the top being rewarded (with hideous salaries and bonuses), and of course John believes in David Cameron’s “Big society” – heaven forbid, agreeing with Cameron!
    The problem with all economic/political systems, be they capitalism, socialism, mutualism – or even communism – is people. For every Philip Green or Mike Ashley, there is a Stalin, or Mao, or Trade Union leader, to foul things up. Man is corrupt, and ever will be, and all systems devised by man will be corrupted by man. It doesn’t matter a jot what you believe in, John, what you believe in is an ideal, and the ideal doesn’t exist in the world of man..

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  35. Re the commenter David above.

    This is also devoid of an email address and thus a hack. It is also a pro-troll completely misrepresenting my position.

    Only this week I posted a piece saying explicitly “all systems fail because the raw material – Homo sapiens – is not up to it”. I have a history of eight separate posts since 2011 condemning The Big Society as utter bollocks. And in my ‘AIMS’ section you will see very clearly that not one of the things Dodgy Dave above says are true in relation to my beliefs.

    As with the other tweet, I urge you not to engage: that’s exactly what they want.

    Same exclusion process applies with this one as to the last.

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  36. My take on the outcome is this.
    The polls – many of them right now are showing a lead for Leave.
    However I think a great many of the ‘Leavers’ polled right now are, like me, anti-establishment, anti the elite, are fed up with being told by the worst political self-interested liars like Cameron and Osborne, the bankers and the Americans, the Troika and the Euro-troughers what to think and how to vote.
    The British instinct is to resist and go contrary.
    Hence the current polls.
    But the Brits are a spineless lot and when they get into the security of the polling booth behind a secluded curtain, they will let their natural instincts come to the fore and let the fear of the “unknown” take over. Too much risk they will think to go with principle and sense.
    So if you want to take a bet I am going to say that the current 45/55 split in favour of Brexit will end up 554/45 in favour of Remain in this lunatic asylum they call the EU.

    Like

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