GREEK CRISIS: Geithner intervention threatens to split Athens coalition

Venizelos….inspecting the American gravy train?

Commentators on the Coalition/Troika negotiations are underestimating the geopolitical dimension

Emboldened by an American promise of support – and terrified of being wiped out politically if further Troika burdens are placed upon the Greek people – the faux and moderate Left part of the Greek Coalition is in disagreement with right-wing Prime Minister Antonis Samaras this evening about how to proceed in its negotiations with the EU/ECB/IMF triad. The Troika itself (aware of an increasing US influence in Greece) is treading more softly than it was last week. Against a background of growing anger in Germany, this is now an extremely unstable situation for the debt markets to analyse…and one from which America can benefit enormously.

The decision to hand tonight (Tuesday) in Athens is which way to jump – into Merkel’s FiskalUnion, or under Geithner’s cloak of protection. And it looks like that choice is causing a split between Right and Left. The coalition leaders met on Monday evening to finalise the austerity proposals, but there was no agreement: Venizelos and Kouvelis suggested that there should be no more taxes, and a renegotiation of the repayment timelines. Samaras disagreed.

But note this from the Collyns-reassured Finance Minister Stournaras: “The point is that our choices should not annul our ability to negotiate and remain in the eurozone….either we take the necessary measures or we return to the drachma within two months”. This isn’t an ultimatum from the American-connected Finance Minister: he is saying, “Make your bloody minds up”. However, just in case anyone was in doubt about the poo-or-get-off-the-pot nature of the situation, his Deputy Christos Staikouras told NET National TV, “Cash reserves are almost zero. It is risky to say until when [they will last] as it always depends on the budget execution, revenues and expenditure. But we are certainly on the brink, we did not receive the aid tranche we were supposed to and we have the pending issue of an ECB bond maturing on August 20th.”

This afternoon BST, PASOK leader Evangelo Venizelos presented to his parliamentary group of MPs  a 10-point strategic framework, reiterating calls for the extension of Greece’s fiscal adjustment period by two years. So in many ways at the minute, the Geithner envoy intervention is having a telling effect. As we’ve seen for some time now, this issue is about more than Greek eurozone membership: it is about even more than Greek contagion. It is about securing America’s future.

A  number of American Sloggers emailed and threaded after the latest update on the long-running plan by Washington and the Pentagon to hive Greece off from Europe….and Germany’s resistance to it. A common reaction was that the US has many bases already, and the entire gamble wasn’t worth it. I comment threaded myself at one stage, to make this point:

‘It’s not just oil/minerals or just a base or just Islamism: it’s the confluence of all that plus Russian, Chinese, German and Turkish influence in the area. The US is a fading Empire desperate to carry on being the Top Cop on the planet. Geopolitics is as much about egomania as it is left-brain stuff.’

An influential Greek wrote to me today as follows:

‘I read your article today. More and more frequent visits of U.S. agents in Greece have the purpose to convince Greece to go to a new nest. If this can be achieved there will be two two benefits for the US: the weakening of Europe, and the strengthening of Israel and US influences in the Middle East. I believe we will see more of this in the future – the “Greek corridor” (Israel-Cyprus-Greece) [that] can ensure the necessary survival of Israel while in case of hot crisis , it can be used to transport aid to the Theatre of Operations in the Middle East. This vital corridor cannot and should not be allowed to be checked by Turkey as it will then be vulnerable to any intervention.’

I posted on Aril 29th last about the electronic comms cable being jointly laid by Israel, Cyprus and Greece. These three nations see themselves as inextricably linked and capable of leveraging their strategic importance to the big boys. Last June 21st, I wrote a piece about Putin’s ambition to turn Cyprus into a Mediterranean Cuba. It took the MSM a week to catch on to that one. Last year, the Russians gave Cyprus a $2.5 bn loan at a massively discounted rate…on vastly better terms than those offered by the catatonics in Brussels. The Kremlin has many servicemen on the island, and many investments in the Greek half, while the President is a pro-Moscow Communist. Turkish Cyprus is a hotbed of Islamism, and was a refuelling point for the soi-disant ‘peace flotillas’ of which we heard so much in 2010.

Since last February, I have been a lone voice using sound sources, local knowledge and strategic nous to show a consistent American attempt to hive off Greece and thus provide both reassurance and supplies to what security services throughout the West now refer as The Greek Corridor. My piece on Wall-Street cooperation with Washington  to get Greece ‘amputated’ and thus ripe for American adoption went viral very quickly on February 16th this year. The guys over at Zero Hedge still think I’m a hoaxer: but that plan keeps resurfacing, and as time goes on it gets harder and harder to deny it. I said Geithner’s envoy had given his Greek friends a ticket to ride, and now Geithner is here himself.

To get your head round this, the first thing one must do is to stop thinking about Greece as a small country with a big debt, full stop. This is geopolitics, not conspiracy theory – and geopolitics is often about opportunity. Greece is being bullied by Berlin-am-Brussels because, without making an example of them and playing for time, Franco-German banks would’ve fallen over and caused a major disaster. But it didn’t take long for American thinkers to see this desperate ploy as their big chance to cement a presence where it really counts at the moment: at the south-eastern end of the Mediterranean.

Others dismiss Greek Aegean resources as chickenfeed, and point up the strong Turkish-held belief that some of them belong to Ankara anyway. But this is precisely what it’s all about. Let me offer you something that every knowledgeable writer in this theatre accepts, be they Greek, American or German: All three intelligence services have massively underplayed the undersea wealth under the Aegean. So too has Mossad, without a shadow of a doubt. Putin (ex KGB) knows this, Schäuble (ex German Interior Minister)  knows this, the Fed Treasury knows it, and so too does the Athens Coalition. Both the Americans and the Russians are determined that Turkey won’t get its hands on one ounce of rare earth or a single drop of oil. These are the stakes, and they’re why this is massively important.

If one draws a slightly wobbly ellipse within the Mediterranean/Arab world as follows –

–  what results is the sphere of influence every major national player would like to be in….because it has rapid flashpoint response, the overwhelmingly biggest energy form on the planet, the epicentre of unstable religious fanaticism, and above all massive supplies of post-modern minerals required for the next stage of economic growth. The Slog essay on Syrian complexities last Saturday used precisely the same perspective.

Talk to those on the ground and at sea in the Med area, and you will learn that Cyprus is swarming with Russian engineers and Greece with American engineers – in the same way that Black Africa is covered in Chinese engineers.  The American elite doesn’t give a crap about Europe beyond two considerations: the euro is a potential competitor to the dollar, and the eurozone screw-up is a massive threat to Wall Street and US debt management costs. It just happens that on the arse end of Europe is Greece, and neutralising its debt-threat is the treble-chance jackpot for Washington: less fiscal contagion, more access to industrial wealth, and the long arm of the law made shorter when things get out of hand.

Important geopolitical factors vary and transmute over time. In the nineteenth century it was naval routes, trade access and Imperial cachet. In the twentieth century, energy, political philosophy, and nuclear stability. In the 21st so far, it is morphing into energy, efficient exploitation, control of fanaticism, and – connected to this – power over nuclear proliferation. But always, unfailingly, it is about business.

Also today at The Slog: How Delaware shenanigans may yet break the world’s greatest soccer brand







117 thoughts on “GREEK CRISIS: Geithner intervention threatens to split Athens coalition

  1. Pingback: John Ward – Greek Crisis Geithner Intervention Threatnes To Split Athens Coalition – 31 July 2012 | Lucas 2012 Infos

  2. Excellent piece again John i agree whole heartedly,however how can you miss the clincher to this,THE SUEZ CANAL
    if the canal was to be closed disrupted or even destroyed we would be in a very difficult position,for America not to be in a position to influence & protect these interest would be negligent,
    The question is economically who would gain from the closure of the canal & military who would it benefit from it’s closure, strategically to any Israeli war to supply the area

  3. JW say you are right I am not sure how Obama is going to sell backstopping Greece in an election year to the US. That gives me pause and not sure despite what your sources say is the plan. maybe you know how O could do this and not get booted.

  4. Fascinating scenarios indeed….
    This is such a volatile region full of so many vital and intractable situations that the USA thinks only of ‘balancing’ in it’s presence to prevent uncontrolled thermal conflageration.

  5. I suspect that Washington has come firmly to the view that the EU is in fact the new USSR – run by an unelected grouping of the left, including communists, socialists and social democrats – that has lost what little support it might have had from the people of Europe. That it behaves more and more like the old soviet and cannot be relied upon in any way to deliver security, stability or economic strength is plain to see. The consequences of this shambles is now hurting the USA badly.

    In the circumstances, the USA has probably decided it needs to take control of the situation, as it had to do more than half a century ago.

    If you were in the situation room in the White House or Pentagon, how much faith would you have in a former treasurer of CND who has never been elected to any office? Or an unelected socialist president whose country is continually threatening to disappear altogether. Or an unelected socialist commission head whose own country is a basket case?

    Tin hats at the ready.

  6. Northern Cyprus is “an hotbed for islamism”. I was there recently and the place was full of casinos and pubs. They even have a pork shop and the cooked breakfasts were better than many in the UK. Never saw a woman in a burka, which is more than I can say for the UK.

  7. Your influential Greek source appears to have a very opposite view to your goodself on how a closer US relationship with Greece might affect its relationship with Israel. Two relevant quotes:

    Your quote of your influential Greek source:
    If this can be achieved there will be two two benefits for the US: the weakening of Europe, and the strengthening of Israel and US influences in the Middle East.

    From your earlier thread about Geithner’s visit(?) to Greece:
    …is Israel no longer deemed to be of value to the Obama Administration as an ally?

    Are we any further forward?

    As I posted in the Geithner thread, I believe the Jewish lobby is very influential in America, more influential to a Democratic President than the oil lobby, although the Oracle @Ioannis totally disagrees and thinks I’m mad. But if your influential Greek is right, then so am I.

    Let’s see what transpires from all this political trading…..

  8. As a sidebar addendum, a useful piece of information to collate would be to know *who* in the general M/E region (and elsewhere for that matter) holds a lot of the American $16 trillion debt. This might be revealing to help in calculating America’s future plans…..

  9. The map you draw is a similiar map that appears on Israeli coins,that of a greater Israel.(see youtube Brother Nathaniel)

  10. My friends in Madrid have told me that a bankrupt Spain is offering a 99 year lease on the port of Mahon,Minorca,at a staggering price(second best harbour in the world) to dear old Uncle Sam.

  11. Excellent wrap up… as of now Greece is tied for 11th place on the list of countries with the most oil reserves, right next to Europe and it’s oil hungry auto filled economy’s… with minimal transport costs… Greece may not have cash (thanks to 3 years of German management) but it is not poor, things are never as simple as the MSM tells you… I just want to add that the 300 billion dollars of oil has been discovered in the Ionian sea, not the Aegean… it is an important distinction because the seas where the oil has been found so far are NOT in contention in any way by the Turks and ready for immediate development… preliminary sonar indicates the Aegean to most probably contain FAR more oil than has been confirmed in the Ionian, on the other side of the country… now, Turkey has actively dissuaded our ships from conducting further testing by sending destroyers into OUR legally recognized seas… to intimidate the research ships into leaving… they have also claimed most of the Aegean as their own and stated that any attempts to capitalize on oil deposits in this area or in Cyprus (both parts) would be considered an act of war by them… problem is those are our seas, every law and court (and map) contends this, we just never implicitly stated they were going to be developed so now they think they can re-write history, and bully us into giving up our resources… Germany will never stand up to Turkey (having fast tracked their EU membership) on behalf of our sovereign naval rights… they lack commitment when it comes to Greece… I think an Aegean filled with US destroyers and carriers should help us to solidify our naval borders and enforce our EEZ (exclusive economic zone) much more effectively… even with only the 30 billion discovered in the Ionian that means Greece is tied for 11th place on the list of countries with the most oil reserves, that does not include the 9 trillion in natural gas on the mainland, or the goodness knows how many more billions in the Aegean Sea… all in the backyard of one of the biggest markets for oil (Europe) in the world that pay in one of the strongest currencies.

  12. News to me also.I have nieces and nephews who were born
    and raised Greek Cypriot,and still live there,so I am sure I ould have heard about it.
    I do not believe that Greece be conveniently taken into the US
    sphere.The unintended consequences to the consequent European banking collapse and its contagion across the pond are far worse than any gains for the US.
    Turbo Tax Timmy is only too aware of those counter party risks.
    He is totally bank owned, as is his boss.
    I still think this is political(domestic)not a geopolitical move.
    Watch what they do ,not what they say.

  13. ” I believe the Jewish lobby is very influential in America, more influential to a Democratic President than the oil lobby, “…

    still hilarious… you obviously have never lived in the US… nothing is more important to the US than cheap oil… I know, I used to lobby for environmental protection groups and alternative energy producers… and when it came to oil… there was nothing more important… not Jews, Palestinians, Greeks, Iraqi’s, Americans, the MOST important thing to a financially unstable USA is the continued flow of cheap gas… if gas in the US were to raise in cost even 1 or 2 dollars per gallon… it would be catastrophic to their economy…

  14. @BT: ‘ The Jewish lobby is very influential in America, more influential to a Democratic President than the oil lobby’.
    The Jewish lobby is the single most powerful lobby in the US today.

  15. They know that Germany and Brussels have screwed the pooch on the economy… it is obvious that Spain and Italy will need saving… they also know that the money is gone, and Germans will not dig into their pockets anymore… at this point they just have to wait for Greece to branch off of the EU runaway roller coaster and then whatever happens to the EU won’t matter as what they want is in Greece anyway… Tim Geithner here this week talking to Germany on our behalf, the other American the week before, Bill Clinton here the week before… there is a lot happening (actions) that is of course not being reported by MSM… but the reason this story was written and the claims it makes true is because HAS been watching what they are DOING instead of saying.

  16. there is no way with an election that O is going to bail out greece. Not going to happen as it would create a firestorm and he might as well resign. I have no idea why G was in greece but he did not offer to bail you out. Simply could not happen at this time. IMO as far as the US is concerned you are on your own till the NYear. Because I see no way for O to sell this to US and for it to be seen as a good thing

  17. Lobby or not, the US cares more about cheap oil than Jews, or anyone else… oil… finding it cheap and selling it big, has far more power in the US than AIPAC.

  18. Agreed, though less so than in the past. Even US autos are finally getting around to decent gas mileage, and over time that really helps the picture. On the other hand, the population of the US has been rocketing in recent years, which works in the opposite direction, not least because of the growing consumption of heating oil.

  19. “The notion that 5.5 million American Jews in tight alliance with the country’s evangelical Christians hold America’s Middle East policy hostage is one of the most dangerous yet enduring myths of American politics and foreign policy.

    It is particularly strong in Europe and in the Arab world, where the inability to understand either how American politics actually works or the depth of the U.S.-Israeli relationship lead to a cardboard conspiracy theory whereby an Israeli prime minister turns the White House and Congress into Israeli occupied territory.”

  20. Not a word has been heard from the good Lady lately. Probably she is consulting with Gordon Brown, who put her there.

  21. You have to read more carefully… no one said the US was going to bail Greece out of their situation with the EU… “G” was here to make an offer of financial support to transition safely out of the EZ should Greece decide to leave the Euro… in other words he came to assure us that America would be there in our time of need, if necessary. Which is more than our Euro “partners” are willing to do… even against their better interests… Germany’s job of character assassination worked too well… and now that they see a source of cheap oil in their backyard slipping away… Merkel and co. have changed their minds… but Germans are still brainwashed and will not help Greece further… being an election year for Merkel she is stuck and must honor the German peoples opinion on the matter… no matter how warped by propaganda that might be.

  22. Obama just has to tell people that he just got exclusive rights to the 11th largest oil reserves in the world right next to one of the most profitable markets for oil on earth. Cheap oil is MORE American than apple pie…

  23. Those lovely Americans. Ready to stretch out the hand of friendship in your time of need…only to use that hand to take all of your stuff at an apocalyptic discount.

    I’d still take that over the German “solution” though.

  24. Anything that makes the states less dependent on fossil fuels is good to me… with their tech, and creative engineering if they can figure out how to provide the services of internal combustion without the need for or pollution from oil… eventually that will spread to the rest of the world…

  25. obama government owe my mandarin master big-time – he get greece oil-tank, nick syrian from rusk and pipe all sticky-stuff through ayatollah avenue to china or i kick him in bony ass and whingy western kidz get no more crappy toy (must make own game carve from picket-fence), ok guys?

  26. Chris… you know the deal… we wanted the EU, wanted Germany… but like you say… they are not giving us a viable alternative… certainly the Americans will get their pound of flesh… but the Germans would not leave vulture scraps on the carcass of Greece when they were finished… at least we have some options… it’s looking better than it did in 2009 when everyone here saw Germany’s half hearted, half measures were insincere… til the Israeli’s and American’s found that oil… things were looking “Mad Max” bad… now, maybe “Thunderdome”? depending on how much of Syria and the “Arab Spring” sneaks into the country… 99 problems but being rich ain’t one.

  27. no, actually…i’m currently overnighting at the beijing hilton before setting out on a fact-finding tour of the golden triangle with a view to developing new opiate sources for a bigger better trans-european health-service, and realizing my vision of a new higher ideal for the 21st century generation.

  28. of course, this makes absolute sense…the united states can then ship-out ‘protected designation of origin’ mayonnaise by the supertanker-load in order to satisfy the ever-escalating global demand for mcdodgy hamburger-dressing in the world’s emerging nations.

  29. The whole world knows that there will be war with Iran shortly. Which is the nearest EU country to Iran that the Revolutionary Guards could target? Are the yanks there to focus minds on that, too?

    Yes, oil may be the dominant issue, but it may not immediately be about the Ionian and Aegean Seas.

  30. mmm…we’ll need to construct a crude processing plant with extra capacity…isn’t there a derelict site located somewhere near downtown athens…?

  31. hang-on chaps…we’re claiming ownership of corfu and crete by virtue of short-term possession rights…if there’s any argument we’ll send down the vulcan.

  32. you know…since spain’s going through such a tough time at the mo’, wouldn’t it be a rather nice gesture if we let them have gibraltar back to tide them over?

  33. Why bother… I hear your mothers gaping wide crude processing plant is ALWAYS open for business… especially for extra capacity.

  34. Cool… a return of the empire to Corfu wouldn’t offend me as much as German’s turning it into some kind of tribal nudist colony…

  35. It’s the perfect way to kill more than one bird with one stone… pretense of helping Greece gets America, and new bases, firmly in place, cheap oil for the new air and sea bases, “liberation” of Syria necessitates occupation, Iran much easier to destabilize, and invade when you are next door, and you get to protect Israel at the same time. They end up with the oil, the most central shipping and tactical location, and they run their ME wars quickly, and easily from a friendly host country… it is a win – win for them…

  36. @Ioannis: Why don’t you write down everythng you know on a sheet of paper and hand it out on street corners?

    [thinks] maybe we’ll get some peace then. ha-ha HAND :-)

  37. @PhilE: It depends on how you define “most powerful lobby”.

    I don’t think the bankers are IF you define it by who has the most potential influence on the forthcoming election (not necessarily who donates the most). That would be the Jewish lobby as it’s been for some time. It is very well organised. The Oracle @Ioannis asserts it’s the oil lobby but he forgets who owns the American media. That is not to say that other lobbies lack influence.

  38. There is no piece of paper large enough… where might I ask is your thimbleful of knowledge hidden? I guess it would be too small to read, so no reason to pass it out, huh? Whaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa… don’t start something you don’t have the knowledge or capability to finish. You made this insulting and personal… not me.

  39. Please help me out here i am just a poor artist and i dont get it .
    If Greece has real oil reserves why dont we hire oil drilling companies to pump the crude and sell it for dollars and kick out the troika and our creditors before they take over our resources ?
    Knowing our politicians regardless of their colour and label , I would doubt about just everything that comes out of their mouths and take it as con game , scam , bamboozle.

  40. that reminds me…

    london 2012 ad hoc accommodation arrangements

    may i inform all our valued olympic guests from the euro-colonies of germany, sweden and france that the green park-spaces of inner london are to be temporarily made available for the purposes of outdoor camping – royal victoria park, situated in london postcode e9, is probably the most convenient location for easy commuting to the athletics stadium / aquacentre…and will be subdivided for use into the following three area-categories:

    1) the western-most end (surrounding the fountain) will be set aside for normal family holiday-makers

    2) the central section will comprise a lagoon and wild-beach facility where topless-sunbathing is officially permitted

    3) the eastern extremity adjacent to the cricket pitches will, for the duration of the games, be set aside for the exclusive use of those visitors who feel the need to indulge in full naturist activity

    all zones will be barbecueable

    thank you and enjoy your stay

    boris johnson
    (mayor of london)

  41. It does not matter in the least who controls Greek oil. Please understand that for each barrel of oil on the world market the price of oil changes. More oil lower prices if the price gets too high then tar sand oil becomes economical and Canada wins. The oil company’s in the US are going to go after oil wherever they can find it because that is their business. Read about fungibility

    Geithner and Schaeuble met on the Frisian island of Sylt to plan the next Anglo Saxon invasion. In this case they were dividing up Greece which neither side wanted but with elections coming up in both their country’s they both needed to act to limit the damage. These guys are already starting to prop up a currency that has yet come into existence.

  42. Pingback: GREEK CRISIS: Geithner intervention threatens to split Athens coalition / Ελληνική Κρίση : Η παρέμβαση το Γκάιτνερ απειλεί με διάσπαση την συγκυβέρνηση της Αθήνας « eleutherie

  43. Pingback: GREEK CRISIS: Geithner intervention threatens to split Athens coalition / Ελληνική Κρίση : Η παρέμβαση το Γκάιτνερ απειλεί με διάσπαση την συγκυβέρνηση της Αθήνας « eleutherie

  44. All your posts hinge on “depends”, “IF”, “I don’t think”… when will you ever make a statement with factual basis… if you can prove something do so, do you simply have to flood our minds with your fanciful flights of blaaaaaaaahhhh?… meanwhile everyone is forced to listen to your armchair racism… it makes sense that you are another “Jews own the media and control the world!” paranoiac… look out here comes Der Juden to get you!!! Boo! According to your madness the Jews also own the banks so I guess that actually does make banker/Jews/boogeyman/owners of all media responsible… w-o-w.

  45. @Notice… make sure to get your beach towels out on those parking spots early in the morning or no one will have a spot… crafty buggers.

  46. It is not our politicians that are making claims about this… the Americans and Israeli’s have confirmed it… also, they are keeping it quiet for the same reason they did not want to sell state held land to help the country… of course our “leaders”: were trying to find ways to give it to friends and family as they have been doing for decades… this time, they are trying to figure out a way to get someone else to pay for drilling and refinery, while still managing to steal some for themselves… we just have to make sure that Merkels puppet Samaras (remember she campaigned for his election… same people she said made the problem) does not give sell the National Oil Co. to the Germans for a lousy 50 Billion…

    “Notably, the IMF and EU governments, among them Germany, demand instead that Greece sell off its valuable ports and public companies, among them of course, Greek state oil companies, to reduce state debt. Under the best of conditions the asset selloffs would bring the country perhaps €50 billion”

    In real world terms we have confirmed roughly 30 billion barrels of oil, and 9 trillion dollars of natural gas… this much oil (until they test the Aegean, and find more) already makes us tied for 11th largest national oil reserves on earth…

  47. It would be 30 billion barrels extracted over 25 years… so it would not be enough to suddenly all at once devalue the price enough to make tar sands affordable… and it is in possibly the best position to sell… right next to wealthy and car crazy Europe… instead of some barren Canadian plain… ther is lso the access to Iran, Syria, and the rest of the ME… that the US ALWAYS has designs on… what better place to draw the line than Greece, that comes with it’s own cheap fuel supply.

  48. @Ioannis: You are a bare faced liar. Virtually every post you make is rude or insulting to anybody who disagrees with your self-proclaimed world class expert knowledge, going back quite a few days. No sane person will waste time with you. I certainly will not.


  49. @BT… sorry, I understand it (to the degree that drivel can be) but…
    I only find stupidity hilarious… and you got me ROTFLMFAO.

  50. Name one lie, not counting yours. I know you can’t come up with one since I back up my statements with references and you just share your “opinions”. Find just one lie.

  51. You try to change the narrative again… you were the one that started being rude and insulting as any quick scan of your posts will reveal. You just can’t take it when someone stands up to your personal attacks, and points out the weakness of your reason with the absence of corroborating facts. You picked the fight… sounding kind of whiny now.

  52. Break even price of Canadian Tar Sand oil is $80 per barrel……. oil sold today at $80.75 It already is affordable Ioannis.

  53. If you add the cost of shipping it over seas and rail to Europe (which is where Greek oil will be sold) in order to do a real comparison of profit margins… your cost/benefit analysis is wrong

  54. $103.57 Brent
    – 80.00 Break even for Tar Sand
    23.57 Tar Sand oil is cheaper however it cost a lot more to process the thick tar sand than light crude and many refinery’s are not yet set up to handle tar sand crude but if they can refine and compete at $80 per barrel they will be profitable. As I said before the refined the finished product is Fungible

  55. A BP propaganda piece… with no actual reference to any verifiable facts and figures… I guess it all depends on whether or not you believe BP is an unbiased source of information… I always believe unsubstantiated oil company statements. Sorry… even the fantasy info in that stated that that cost would be for oil being refined and sold in the US… Like I said to compare it to the cost and profit margin of oil drilled in Greece and sold just a short truck ride away, in countries with more people, that pay with a stronger currency, and tend to pay higher prices anyway… it is simply more profitable. Like I said if you add the European taxes and cross the ocean shipping to your theoretical 80$’s a barrel (which is only for US market, not European)… then your assertion (based on unsubstantiated data) simply goes out the window.

  56. Tar Sands oil (if you trust oil co. propaganda) may be more profitable… in America, which is not the market this conversation is about.

  57. Tar sands Dilbit (since it is not crude oil) is not worth the same as real crude since the expenses of refining are higher, and the only reason the barrell price is low is because of some tax loophole that they are exploiting… when that is plugged up and American tax payers refuse to stop paying twice for their “Dilbit” (once at the pump, the second on tax day) the price will rise to reflect the reality that it is not real oil, not worth as much, and will cost the same, if not more because of special refineries needed, to produce as regular American crude…

    “But oil from the tar sands is regulated differently when it comes to taxes. The oil industry pays an 8-cent-per-barrel tax on crude oil produced and imported to the U.S. The tax goes into the Oil Spill Liability Trust Fund, which provides emergency funds for oil spill cleanup and claims. Both the Marshall and BP Gulf Coast spills have tapped that fund.

    Some say the oil from Canada’s tar sands is so different based on its chemistry, behavior and how it’s produced, that it should not be considered crude oil. ”

    fascinating stuff Dilbit… but utterly bollocks as far as comparing to real crude, and it’s cost will rise for technical, and taxation reasons… sorry, I don’t see any comparison between the real crude found here to be sold in more profitable markets within close proximity… and your Dilbit peanut butter that has to be cut with benzine to get it to flow through pipes (when it does).

  58. Also… you keep saying “if” we find oil in Greece… there is no IF… it is already happening… the Russians, Israelis, and Americans would not be here doing drill tests, and sonar for “IF”… we have 11 offers from 9 companies at the moment… no one makes offers for “IF”… please see the very detailed links I have put up repeatedly… or better yet, since you know so much about dilbit, hmmm… I mean oil, then it shouldn’t be too difficult to disprove my statements.

  59. For 2012

    Lobbying groups spending…

    US Chamber of Commerce $55,320,000
    National Assn of Realtors $16,162,290
    General Electric $11,180,000
    AT&T Inc $10,540,000
    Blue Cross/Blue Shield $10,527,032
    Pharmaceutical Rsrch & Mfrs of America $10,210,000
    Google Inc $9,790,000
    American Medical Assn $9,240,000
    American Hospital Assn $9,020,200
    National Cable & Telecommunications Assn $8,850,000
    Northrop Grumman $8,620,000
    Comcast Corp $8,590,000
    Verizon Communications $8,540,000
    Boeing Co $8,190,000
    Southern Co $7,980,000
    Lockheed Martin $7,939,550
    National Assn of Broadcasters $7,510,000
    Dow Chemical $7,145,000
    Exxon Mobil $6,940,000
    Royal Dutch Shell $6,880,000

  60. Ioannis you keep missing the central point oil is oil is oil where ever it is found. Somehow this Greek oil that has been discovered has not made it to the surface yet has it?
    Greece would be much better off if they had the technology to refine crude oil than to hire someone to come to Greece to pump it out of the ground. Refining oil is a high tech operation that is why Iran has a fuel shortage. Any idiot can drill a hole in the earth. To drill offshore is another matter and I’m guessing that the Greeks are not very good at that option. So you need to have help to develop your oil field. Then you go on bitching an moaning about who is going to exploit your resources. Please give it a rest. Your pity party is tiresome.

  61. Sorry my apologies about the Greek refining capability’s Ioannis. I’m sure your Public Petroleum Corp, oops Hellenic Petroleum is a fine operation.

  62. Excellent, excellent. So that means you can pay your debts. That means that all those private Bond holders who were robbed earlier this year will now be paid in full. Happy days.

  63. I have no problem with someone coming along to help us exploit our resources… I have no idea what fevered delusions your mind conjures up on it’s own but it’s apparent that either your comprehension or literacy are limited. I am ALL in favor of someone coming to set up shop… in fact, as I’ve ALREADY explained to you, we have signed with Israel for further testing, and with Russia for pipelines through to Italy and up into the Balkans through Romania, and of course there are the 11 different offers from major oil cos on the table… so… again, for your benefit… we already have partners, we are taking offers from more, and I am in favor of doing so… hopefully this will sink in… of course we would be better off if we had our own refineries but we are a small country with less than 10 million people and do not have the resources to do so ourselves… so, you see… we are actually in the process… (had to reiterate for you)… I notice you have dropped your Tar Sands fantasy line of debate… the lack of any further references to prove your statements indicates that is a good choice. Like BT, you just change the subject or try to change the facts to disguise the fact that you are wrong… and the only pity party here… would be for your lame attempt to avoid being found out for the fluff talking fool you really are. Nice try to change the subject though…

  64. Hellas because of her “Geopolitical status” ,“Energy reserves “ and “ Mineral reserves” unfortunately still a claimed colony.

    Let’s wait to see the winner.

  65. I know longer care to educate some people on this post with answers to questions they keep asking over, and over again. At the end of the day, these folks just keep denying facts, while not even trying to reference their statements in any way… until now, I have diligently provided references to prove the statements I have made… and gotten abuse and stupid baseless donkey braying as a result. I would ask that people that have questions or doubts about things on the Slog… at least take 30 seconds and 2 calories worth of energy to do a Google search or SOMETHING and learn more about things for which they are ignorant… I am tired of repeatedly straightening out people’s fevered delusions over and over only to have them repackage the same bundle of stinking dog shit statements (that have already been proven false) and throw them back at me… it is apparent that these folks must have some agenda, or ideological predisposition that taints their ability to objectively absorb or even entertain facts outside the scope of their beliefs… this is not my problem. If you don’t agree with what JW posts, fine… but do everyone a favor and avoid posting your opinions and fantasies if they can’t be credibly referenced and shown to have SOME merit… out.

  66. Now you have got it off your chest, perhaps you can calm down and stop being so rude to everyone.

  67. Sid…. please look back over the posts of the last few days… I am not the one that started that rudeness… i just finally decided to answer it in kind… my mistake was bothering to sink to the level of the instigators in the first place. I would ask that you too… do a little research before posting about something you are not fully aware of.

  68. William,

    No doubt the Yanks are offering to pay for it with a nice CDO from the vaults of Countrywide!

  69. Any default by Greece, if all this potential oil assets are real, would surely make any Nation/ group of wealthy investors with surplus cash the banker of choice to solve the Greek debt problems.

    The Greeks are clever enough and those with the money are smart enough to know at least as much as bloggers here apparently do.

    Have I been napping, but I have not seen even rumours of a deal for Greece backed by their yet to be quantified oil reserves, what have I been missing, are not we been fed a steady stream of there is mountains of cash ready to go but no attractive viable investment opportunities?

  70. Yep hence the 2 lines on their national flag… from the nile to the euphrates with their symbol in-between

  71. @Ioannis – Sometimes you have a lot that is interesting to say…….sometimes it is good to sit back and listen to what others have to say…………please :)
    This is not the Ioannis show (just like it is not the Gemz show). Getting annoyed at those who have a different point of view (and arguing the same thin ad nauseum) just confuses the discussion and adds nothing to the best blog out in webland. I do not agree with BT on a lot of things (though he introduces some very interesting slants sometimes) – but reducing his argument earlier to being a racist was uncalled for (and very lefty twatish IMHO – name calling is for those who lack an argument).
    A lot is going on at the moment WRT the Greece situation/EU/USA and putting the jigsaw together takes a lot of competing views rather than shouting each other down just because we disagree.
    Thanks :)
    Please do not take this as an insult as I will not be dragged into an argument. It is just an opinion piece :)

  72. IOANNIS – you big big liar. big time. yes yes – confucius say when you have nothing to say stop saying it

  73. @Ioannis: “I have diligently provided references to prove the statements I have made…

    Most unlikely IMO. If there is one thing that’s very clear to me from your many recent posts it is that you either completely misunderstand what other people are saying or you twist and manipulate what they’ve said and throw it back at them with abuse, lies and false allegations. This is not the behaviour of a mentally mature person with integrity. It’s the behaviour of an attention-seeking hysteric and it undermines whatever it is that you might know something about.
    … … …
    People who feel the need to spend their time posting endless quotes/links to what other people have said – as if by doing so provides final irrefutable proof of what they’re saying – hide the fact that the quotes/links they post are only ever the ones which support what they’re saying. There are always other points of view. Consider this:
    one original thought is worth a thousand quotes” ….. Anon.

    HAND :-)

  74. Ianni mou, I appreciate your posts, you seem very informed and I always read them with interest. But I will tend to agree with other posters here. it’s like you are hungry for “air time” (or air space in that medium).
    Consequently, the thread then looks like a ping pong game: tiring to watch.
    Less is more…

  75. If only you’d had one original thought… or even a statement that could be proven… name one lie, one false allegation I have made… the abuse was just returning the favor… anyone looking at the previous few days posts can see that clearly…

  76. At the end of the day… the idea that I am posting for attention doesn’t carry weight because if it were true, like some other posters here, I would be blabbing on and on on EVERY subject… I have never once commented on what is happening politically in the U.K. or on any of the other subjects JW posts about… because I don’t know enough…I don’t believe in making ignorant remarks when I don’t really know much about the subject matter… when it comes to Greece EVERYBODY is an expert and has some bunch of bollocks they feeI the need to blurt out… I will correct people… BECAUSE they are often wrong, and I am tired of all the slander, and lies that people that don’t live here and don’t have a clue continue to propagate… so I would never comment on Cameron, or Murdoch, et al… simply because I don’t need attention, I am not as informed as other posters, and I have a respect for the people that do know more than me on this subject.

  77. on behalf of locog and the city of greater london may i thank ioannis for pointing out the erratum at bullet-point 3, line two (insert ‘designated’ for ‘set aside’) – the flyer-printers have been notified and, money being no object, a fresh run has been ordered at the cost of £1.4 million. may i take this opportunity to thank the slog for supporting and sponsoring london 2012 olympics and to inform john and ioannis that their free complementary invitation to attend the men and women’s marathon events is in the post. the revised text reads as follows:

    london 2012 ad hoc accommodation arrangements

    may i inform all our valued olympic guests from the euro-colonies of germany, sweden and france that the green park-spaces of inner london are to be temporarily made available for the purposes of outdoor camping – royal victoria park, situated in london postcode e9, is probably the most convenient location for easy commuting to the athletics stadium / aquacentre…and will be subdivided for use into the following three area-categories:

    1) the western-most end (surrounding the fountain) will be set aside for normal family holiday-makers

    2) the central section will comprise a lagoon and wild-beach facility where topless-sunbathing is officially permitted

    3) the eastern extremity adjacent to the cricket pitches will, for the duration of the games, be designated for the exclusive use of those visitors who feel the need to indulge in full naturist activity

    all zones will be barbecueable

    thank you and enjoy your stay

    boris johnson
    (mayor of london)

  78. @Ioannis: Your dishonesty knows no bounds. You know darned well that if I could be bothered I could produce a list of your misunderstandings, misrepresentations, twisting, out of context quotes of what I’ve said (and others) and false allegations, made over the past few days in this ridiculous debate that you’re so wound up about. Eg: the issue of who owns large tracts of the US media (and therefore has significant clout in US politics) is one that you knowingly or stupidly twisted into a false allegation of anti-semitism and threw at me. Another Slogger picked you up on it. Get it?

    HAND :-)

  79. Ioaniss. You seem upset …..of course by living in Greece you have a better perspective of many things going on their than I do, however your personal attacks merely undermine anything you say. I’m sorry but you have lost me I have stopped reading what you have to say. It is interesting that when I stop talking about Tar Sand you think somehow that you have won some sort of debate on the contrary you with your bombast just wear people down This is my last exchange with you. I read this Blog for fun and you are making in a chore. Good-by Ioaniss. I hope this somehow feeds into your perception that you are some sort of expert because this must be the path out of your painful life.

  80. Morning Star

    [off topic]

    JW has never said anything to me about my commenting. If he had, I would have obliged. As it is, he hasn’t. It is his blog, it is his space to do with as he chooses. It is not for you to tell anyone here what they should and should not do. That, however, is not to say that you cannot express an opinion – but opinion it must remain.

    There are times when the likes of Ioannis (and others) have very interesting points of view that are worth investigating. That of necessity means that there are frequent responses. I am sorry if you do not like this, but as I have said before, you need only overlook my comments.

  81. More bollocks from you… you made statements, you were wrong, I pointed it out and now you are whiny about it.. if you had not been insulting, and antagonistic (which everyone can see for themselves by looking at your posts the last few days) none of this would have gone this way… as far as your not reading my posts? could not care less… no need whatsoever for your approval. I look forward to not hearing from you. My life will be less painful if you stop your whining now.

  82. Bollocks again… you can’t come up with any example of my “dishonesty” because it does not exist… or else you most certainly would have pointed it out by now… you certainly bother enough to continue making false claims… like that I lied… it would be easy enough to prove, if it were true… but you don’t have proof… because you are the liar, the antagonist, the name caller… my mistake was sinking to your level and making it personal… believe me after all the bollocks I have read from you since, I AM sorry I did so. You are the one that started to be insulting and now that you’ve been stood up to… you play the victim, I don’t care if another Slogger agrees with your ancient mythology that Jews run the media around the world… it is one of the oldest antisemitic myths that have been going around the world… just because some other chumhead believes it could not concern me less… like I said before I do not need your or anyone else’s approval… just silence hopefully.

  83. breaking news: Putin with a small entourage is currently in Greece, off the west coast of Peloponnese, in area called Katakolo. This spot is among those the Greek government has recently issued an international call to tender for oil exploration. The official reason for his landing is to visit the site of ancient Olympia. The Russians will be transported with helicopter from a yacht called Sea Rhapsody to ancient Olympia….the plot thickens…

  84. That has been floating in some circles for some time now… And that was my reaction when I heard Staikouras confirm that we are out of cash — we know we are out of cash, why would Staikouras mention it?

    The sad part is that we should have kissed the Fiskalunioin goodbye in May of 2010 (or, with the benefit of hindsight, in December 2008, after a month of firebombings in Athens). I

  85. Ioannis… Its easy for people to state things when they dont have to go to the Dr and pay 4 times for medication if they get it at that. Try telling your father that is recovering from cancer that he has to experience pain only because there is no money for the government to help because they spent it on themselves and the few. Yes it wasnt only politicians that stole however I’m sure that it was speculators outside Greece that drove our Government bonds up to a point which bankcrupted the nation.

    Try going to the Dr for micro surgery and having to take your own bandages.
    So take a step back people and think before you flame…

    The whole point about the natural reserves Oil/Gas/Rare Earth is not about $80 a barrel, or $1000 a ton or the 25 year development. Its about bringing investment into the country and to kick start the economy. Leading to jobs for people so they can have dignity in paying there own way and provide basic necessaties.

    We do not want fake hand outs from Troika, America or anyone else. To be frank Anglo, Saxon, Frankish who ever the fark he is can go f themselves with their Feudalistic Ideals and colonial imperialism.

    You see the nerve has been touched here in Greece to the point where the mood is alot different to how it was in 2009.

    P.S Where would you rather invest? In Greece around the ionian/Aegean which has relative stability or IRAQ? or Libya? or Afghanistan? Or Syria? Yes you can build in these countries but how quickly will pipelines be bombed, hijacked destroyed?

  86. Yikes! are the Greeks selling out to the Russians? or is this just a ploy to ratchet up the EU & American offers of help? As you say…the plot thickens.

    Toon in next week folks for our next instalment….

  87. The ways things are going do not be surprised when you read in future headlines “Greece out of the Euro has led them to exit NATO” The Russian federation has now moved in. Do not forget China has invested alot in the main port Pireas and SCO is pissed as to what Troika/Americano has done to that investment.

    Why do you think Clinton was in Athens. Why do you think Wolfgang Schäuble and Geithner were meeting. “No more concessions for Greece, says German Finance chief ahead of Geithner meeting” and yet over night oh we give you money now. Are you serious. Who are these people?

    Anyway we no longer give a rats hiny what Troika or the US wants… hence Russia is on site.

  88. With all the Americans, Israeli, and BP guys running around all summer I was wondering when the Russians would show up… like JamesE said… I don’t care who comes to help us with our resources as long as it means jobs, and a return to stability.

  89. Next week Shimon Perez is coming to visit as well… boy you find a little oil and everyyybody wants to be friends… to be fair Greece and Israel have always had decent ties…

  90. “… very lefty twatish IMHO – name calling is for those who lack an argument”…

    So calling me “twatish” and saying name calling is for those who lack an argument means you are a hypocrite that just stated you have no real argument… can’t make this stuff up.

    Please do not take this as an insult as I will not be dragged into an argument. It is just an opinion piece :)

  91. Pingback: Op-Ed: Greece’s unexploited oil and gas attractive to U.S. Geithner-By Katerina Nikolas in DIGITAL JOURNAL -

  92. Pingback: GREECE EXCLUSIVE: Samaras spearheads new Centre Party as Tsipras courts the Americans | A diary of deception and distortion

  93. Pingback: John Ward – Greece Exclusive: Samaras Spearheads New Centre Party As Tsipras Courts The Americans – Syriza And Golden Dawn Still Growing, PASOK Down To 4% – 1 November 2012 | Lucas 2012 Infos

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