HOLOHOAX: Possibly the most offensive word of the century so far

Extraordinary email from Tom Watson, unpleasant suggestion from Bob Russell, groundless vitriol from Chris Spivey.

This is yet another post that will earn me the usual stream of pro-Palestinian invective and hard Left dismissal as a Zionist, but it needs to be written, – as every iota of discernible Truth must be until such time as the Dark Forces can create their virtual Newspeak record. Chris Spivey has recently sent me an open list of recipients on an email purporting to come from Tom Watson MP. It is unclear as to what Watson’s view of the affair is, but the title of the email is ‘Sir Bob Russell MP – Inconvenient truth remarks’. My assumption is that Tom violently opposes the somewhat unpleasant question asked of the Education Secretary recently. If so, good for Tom.

Russell is a LibDem oddball who, calling a spade a spade here, bears the clear hallmarks of a Holocaust denier. He (along with millions of others) is part of, not a global conspiracy of any kind, but a growing body of opinion that has doubts to a varying degree about the numbers killed in Hitler’s death camps, whether the gas chambers ever existed, and the use by Israeli propagandists of the event to curry sympathy for Israel. The Nazi regime was the subject of my two Politics dissertations while I was at University in the 1960s. I have visited the Wannsee museum where the plans were made for systematic annihilation of an entire ethnico-religious group. I have read all the Wannsee papers. I have studied the records of most of the Concentration camps constructed between 1935 and 1944. On that basis I continue to be convinced that Holocaust denial is both pernicious, and utterly wrong factually. I think there are occasions when the West shrinks from the need to criticise Israel because of Holocaust sympathy, and I of course know – indeed, have personally experienced – the immense power of the Jewish lobby in the US. But those with a ‘Holohoax’ agenda bend almost every element of syntax associated with this question, and whenever they do, it never checks out.

I will give you just three examples.

An acquaintance in Athens last April snorted dismissively when I mentioned the word Holocaust. “Pah!” she observed, “Nobody even used the word until the 1990s”. That is completely untrue. James Woods and Meryl Streep starred in a TV mini-series called ‘Holocaust’ in 1978. It was the most anticipated and highest rating mini series of all time in the US. The word was first used in relation to Hitler’s genocidal scheme while it was still going on: it appeared in the London News Chronicle during November 1942.

The death-camp survivor Simon Wiesenthal became an active Nazi hunter in the 1950s, and made the word part of common parlance from then on. It is a complete myth that the term was “engineered and created by Mossad to excuse its own holocaust against the Palestinians”. But even had that ridiculous lie been true, do they think Mossad invented the term ‘Final Solution’ as well?

A frequent assertion of the Holohoax school is that the deaths of Jews were grossly exaggerated, and the gas chambers an invention. My friend Annie Walsh’s father liberated Sachsenhausen concentration camp. The German general Milch was under arrest in the nearby town. Annie’s Dad accepted the man’s Nazi fasci as a symbol of surrender – and broke it over Milch’s head, he was so disgusted by what he had seen. Pictures he took at the time are in the British military archives. His fasci was sold by Annie at auction ten years ago. The supply orders still exist for the death-gas Xylon B, and can be viewed in the Bundesrepublik archives. When Eisenhower first inspected the machinery of the death camps in late Autumn 1944, his order to the press corps and military recorders is famous: “Take all the pictures you can, because sure as hell some son of a bitch will deny this ever took place before long”. He meant the Germans. He’d be astonished if he knew that British MP’s would be denying it within forty years.

The documentary evidence of the Holocaust – how it was planned and what happened – on paper, photo and film – is so overwhelming, denying it is dafter than still thinking the Earth is flat. As it happens, it’s a myth that Hitler’s regime was the greatest mass-murdering State of all time: that honour goes to the USSR, which slaughtered 12 million dissidents under Josef Stalin between 1935 and 1950. It’s odd, is it not, that there are no Gulag Arhipelago deniers around. That’s because to do so would be beating Moscow around the head – rather than Tel Aviv. You know – the Moscow that still arms Israel’s enemies, and helps fund Peace Flotillas. Peace Flotillas that call in to ‘refuel’ at ports in the rogue Turkish Cypriot regime….controlled by Recep Erdogan, the Islamist Nazi now finally showing his true colours. You know – the pillock who had praise heaped on him by our own resident pillock David Cameron two years ago. You know, the idiot who called Gaza “a concentration camp”.

And so to the six million number. Google it as ‘Six million holocaust deaths, true or false?’ and an endless stream of rabid nutjob sites pop up, trotting out the usual garbage – not a single piece of which can ever be verified or viewed. They all sport truly reasonable and objective site-names like ResistancetoZionism, Stormfront, Biblebelievers, Zioncrimefactory, Jewwatch, Holhohoax, Jewfraud…and on and on. So let’s try some records and facts instead.

On the site About.com, you can read a lengthy and well-documented account of how the Nazis actually exterminated 11 million Europeans – Gypsies, Romas, intellectuals, dissidents – of whom ‘only’ six million were Jewish. But if all that information to just too obvious a Zionist plot for you, then there is a far more simple way you can prove the ‘no documentary evidence’ claim made by the deniers to be utter tosh. Go the Nuremburg Trial records in Washington: read the transcripts, and examine the missing persons and demographic evidence used to arrive at the figure of somewhere between 5.1 and 6 million victims.

Warning: this will mean coming down from the belfry attic you inhabit, buying a plane ticket and then sitting for many hours doing real research. Not recommended for committed Holocaust deniers. On the other hand, being a lazy person who’d rather accuse than investigate, here’s the foreword to the collected Nuremburg record itself. It could not be clearer (my italics):

‘In order to avoid any accusation of exclusive reliance on personal testimony, which later generations might perceive to be biased, prosecutors decided to base their case primarily on thousands of documents written by the Germans themselves. These masses of documents were translated into the court’s four official languages, analyzed for their significance, and reproduced for distribution to defense attorneys and other trial participants. The prosecution presented other evidence through artifacts, diagrams, and photographs taken by Nazi photographers in concentration camps.

Nineteen investigative teams scoured German records, interviewed witnesses, and visited the sites of atrocities to build the case.

Eyewitness testimony presented at the Nuremberg trials laid the foundation for much of what we know about the Holocaust including details of the Auschwitz death machinery, atrocities committed by the Einsatzgruppen (mobile killing units), the destruction of the Warsaw ghetto, and the original statistical estimate of six million murdered Jews.’

OK? Fine, now onto the barmy question asked by Sir Bob Russell. Questioning Education Secretary Michael Gove about the national curriculum, Sir Bob asked: “On the assumption that the 20th century will include the Holocaust, will he give me an assurance that the life of Palestinians since 1948 will be given equal attention?”

Nudge, nudge, wink, wink – let’s hear both sides etc etc. Alright then, let’s hear both sides.

Before the State of Israel was declared in 1948 – and for some years afterwards – the Palestinians in the West Bank and Gaza were variously under Jordanian and Egyptian occupation. It was not a pleasant experience for them, because if we’re being frank here fellow Arabists, not that many Arabs like the Palestinians much. The Saudis, for example, positively loathe them as – put to me three years ago by one of their number – “an underclass nuisance who couldn’t organise dawn”.

Egypt had, for most of the time, occupied Palestine since 878. On 29th November 1947, the UN General Assembly partitioned the State, half for Egypt and half for the Jews. Civil war immediately broke out in the former Mandate territory, and Ben Gurion declared the State of Israel in May 1948. He saw the civil war as certain to strangle Israel at birth, and wanted to resist it. Egypt then invaded Israel without warning – and the Israeli army drove them out again. Under orders from the UN, Israel evacuated Gaza.

Since that time, neither side – Jew or Arab – has covered itself in anything even approaching glory. The Israelis have been guilty of heavy-handed tactics and hanging on to bits they’ve invaded; the Arabs have started two wars since, both without warning and one on the Jewish Holy Day Yom Kippur.

To suggest that mistreatment of the Palestinian people has been entirely Israeli is convenient bollocks. And if Russell wants a ‘balanced’ historical coverage of the events then and since, here are some more ‘uncomfortable facts’ for him to consider:

* The occupying British treated the emerging Israeli State with appalling torture and gangster tactics, seeing them as ‘terrorists’.

* The Egyptian and Jordanian regimes at the time made life as unpleasant as possible for the Palestinian people.

* The sum total of people killed in all the Arab Israeli conflicts since 1948 is 65,000. Rather less than six million. Oh, sorry – you don’t believe that do you? Or you can’t afford the plane fare to Washington, one of the two.

Let’s get real here: the majority of Arabs in the region don’t ‘desire’ an independent , fully-functioning Palestinian State: they use the concept as a weapon with which to bash the Israelis. The Arab Islamist élites – where they exist, and they are growing – want the Jews liquidated from the region – either by War and/or forced displacement to a territory somewhere in Black Africa. I have to add that ordinary Arabs have been living in peace with the Jews for over 3,000 years…but let’s not go there, or we’ll be here all day.

In the basis of all this drivel, Chris Spivey four days ago published a horribly offensive post with this charming cartoon at the head of it:

holojoke

Ny-eece. Not so much Holohoax, perhaps, as hollow joke. I’ve always had my doubts about Chris, but after this post I’m sorry, I shall not be able to take him seriously about anything again. Read the post and, if you really understand what The Slog is about, you’ll agree with me. The sum foundation upon which Spivey bases his conversion to denial of the Holocaust numbers is ‘Well, as it happens I got sent some information on this subject the other week. And, having now read it, I have to say that I agree. The figures and official narrative most certainly do not add up.’ He can’t identify his source, but it is ‘a respected author’. David Irving by any chance?

Couldn’t afford the fare to Washington, eh Chris? Ne’er mind: I can get you a good deal on Virgin. Some of Chris Spivey’s wild accusations against those he suspects of paedophilia are examples of what I posted about recently at The Paedofile: foulmouthed screamers who can be used and mocked by the real perpetrators who present them as The unatic Fringe. A few people didn’t like that post; lots of people won’t like this one.

The lots of people who won’t know naff-all about true Arabism, or the overlaying factors of trade, religion and quasi-caste system culture that permeate this entire region. They’re the same berks who wittered on brainlessly about an Arab Spring, who believe the Muslim Brotherhood are humanitarian freedom-fighters, that Assad bombed Turkey, that the Syrian conflict is about democracy, that Ahmadinnhejad’s departure marks a new beginning in relations with Iran, that Iran has only peaceful intentions for its bomb programme, and that the Jews have no rights at all to a homeland in the Middle East.

So I will close by getting entirely up the nasal area of those useful idiots who follow the Arab agenda on Israel to the letter along with some of the more unreasonably aggressive Israelis at the same time. It is often said that Israelis play the Jewish victim card for all it’s worth. They do – I have in forty years of dealing with them only met two I liked: and you will find a great many British Jews expressing the exact same opinions. But there genuinely is a conspiracy of silence about the other side of this coin: that some Arab leaderss play the Palestine card because they are viciously anti-Semitic, and want the Jews entirely removed from a desert they have wandered about in for nearly 4,000 years. Were they European, dare I make the parallel, they would probably have supported the Nazi attempt to liquidate Roma travelling Gypsies.

Silly? Not really: the established Ba’athist resistance opposed to the Shah of Iran during the 1940s met several times with Heinrich Himmler’s SS envoys while Erwin Rommel was in control of the desert during 1941. The purpose of this meeting? Their cooperation in the rounding up of Mideastern Jews following a Nazi victory. They too back with them a warm message of support for Adolf Hitler, expressing their admiration for his liquidation schemes.

Now there’s a thought to chew on with your roast beef. Enjoy this warm Sunday.

154 thoughts on “HOLOHOAX: Possibly the most offensive word of the century so far

  1. “They’re the same berks who wittered on brainlessly about an Arab Spring, who believe the Muslim Brotherhood are humanitarian freedom-fighters”

    That’s no way to talk about President Obama, John.

  2. Why has the World’s spotlight been shining on such a small number of people (11 million). Israel and Palestine make up how much of the World’s population percentage? Why the incessant preoccupation? In who’s interest is this perpetually highlighted?

    The “deniers” and the “truthers” are guilty of the same myopic view. They obviously need each other for some strange reason.

  3. Pingback: John Ward – Holohoax : Possibly The Most Offensive Word Of The Future So Far – 14 July 2013 | Lucas 2012 Infos

  4. The doco Blood on the Snow put Stalin as being responsible for 20 million Russian deaths and WW11 for 25 million Russian deaths..
    He was just a beginner.. What was Mao;s tally??. 80 to 120 million..
    And now we are all sucking up to the Chinese…

      • Yet given the numbers involved how odd that ‘The Holocaust’ refers only to Jewish deaths and not the 60 million orthodox Russians killed by the Jewish bolsheviks of that era.

        I believe the increase in ‘skeptics’, note not ‘deniers’ is wholly due to the lack of evidence supporting the six million claim, let alone the logistics of the act which simply do not add up mathematically. To then Imprison people for ‘questioning’ the official line just puts the top hat on it.

      • ’60 million orthodox Russians killed by the Jewish bolsheviks of that era.’
        You need help, mate. And soon.

      • “You need help, and soon”.

        A very, very poor response.

        Winston Churchill:

        “There is no need to exaggerate the part played in the creation of Bolshevism and in the actual bringing about of the Russian Revolution, by these international and for the most part atheistical Jews, it is certainly a very great one; it probably outweighs all others. With the notable exception of Lenin, the majority of the leading figures are Jews. Moreover, the principal inspiration and driving power comes from the Jewish leaders. Thus Tchitcherin, a pure Russian, is eclipsed by his nominal subordinate Litvinoff, and the influence of Russians like Bukharin or Lunacharski cannot be compared with the power of Trotsky, or of Zinovieff, the Dictator of the Red Citadel (Petrograd) or of Krassin or Radek — all Jews. In the Soviet institutions the predominance of Jews is even more astonishing. And the prominent, if not indeed the principal, part in the system of terrorism applied by the Extraordinary Commissions for Combating Counter-Revolution has been taken by Jews, and in some notable cases by Jewesses. The same evil prominence was obtained by Jews in the brief period of terror during which Bela Kun ruled in Hungary. The same phenomenon has been presented in Germany (especially in Bavaria), so far as this madness has been allowed to prey upon the temporary prostration of the German people. Although in all these countries there are many non-Jews every whit as bad as the worst of the Jewish revolutionaries, the part played by the latter in proportion to their numbers in the population is astonishing.”

      • It does seem that numbers rather than the fact humans actually did these atrocities seems to rule the day,all side even small groups have fallen well short of decent human behaviour,where ever it arises for whatever reason it arises it should be stopped & never forgotten,but never used to excusing anyone actions

  5. It is also foolish to deny that there is a Holocaust industry that politically milks the Jewish tragedy. There is,for example, no attempt to put the story of 3-7? million war deaths since 2000 in the Congo onto the National Curriculum.

    • Barbarism in time of war is hardly new. It’s been going on from time immemorial. The death toll in the Congo is the result of a bunch of people who don’t like each other at the best of times, killing each other for resources and power. Same goes for Yugoslavia, or Chechnya or Armenia and Azerbaijan etc.

      The Holocaust is different in that a supposedly modern, progressive, and civilised people deliberately sought to EXTERMINATE whole groups of people not based on any threat they posed, but due solely to their race/ethnicity. Not enslave them (the Nazis, specifically had other racial groups such as Slavs earmarked for that), not drive them from their homes so that more favoured people could take their place (which is what ethnic cleansing actually is) – but to wipe them from the face of the earth.

      While the USSR and Communist China may be directly responsible for more deaths than Nazi Germany, neither of them.sought the extermination of entire peoples (certain social groups perhaps – but class isn’t as immutable as your family tree).

  6. While the Holocaust is an incontovertible fact (if not an ‘undeniable’ one), it also remains a fact that the Hitler regime was almost certainly responsible for more deaths than Stalin, should we add in the 20-odd million Slavs murdered by the Nazis in their ‘war of extermination’ against the Soviet Union (forgotten during the Cold War, along with the fact that Russia did the most to defeat Nazism). Comparisons between the two dictatorships, are however, for the most part pointless, and devisive, and have been used by politicians of East and West to downplay the atrocities and mass-murders by ‘the other side’ for one reason or another. This silly game is negated when it comes to the Nazi-Soviet Pact and the joint enterprise of the SD/Gestapo- NKVD efforts to ‘liquidate’ the Polish ruling class.

    It is also the case, that while Gaza is certainly not a concentration camp, it absolutely is a walled ghetto, and the treatment of the Palestinians, Israeli Arabs and Bedouin a matter of undying shame for the Israeli state- given the history of the creation of that nation. In a grotesque twist of history, the nation of Israel has become a ‘racial state’, where, to paraphrase Camus, the historical victims have become latter-day executioners- with ethnic-religious identity papers, lightning wars, ethnic cleansing, massacres, control of the means of life, labour and love, watchtowers, torture, detention without trial, denial of nationhood/identity, etc. etc.

    Meanwhile the opposition also falls into the trap of history with Mein Kampf being sold openly and avidly read across the ME (though why Arabs would really want to read Hitler’s lsargely irrelevent and tedious expositions is beyond me), Hezbollah giving the ‘Roman Salute’ and the Grand Mufti of Jerusalem, Haj Amin al-Husseini being lauded as a national hero ( He who encouraged genocide against the Jewish people, and was, putatively to be given the entire ME by Hitler as Arab Fuhrer/ Caliph).
    Anti-semites, anti-Arabs, Nazis, Zionists and Islamic fundamentalists alike all share the same common feature- a hatred born of the delusion that a God exists and that they are the ‘chosen people’. A civilised human being’s response can only be “a pox on all religion and all ideology”.

    • Not sure where you get 20 million slavs killed by the Nazis. A lot of research has been done on the missing Russians in the population post 1945 and the current state of affairs is that upto 5 million died due to war and ethnic cleansing activities ( including Ukranian losses). Poland lost approximately 6 million but this figure is very difficult to confirm due to the change of borders and subsequent movement of populations post Yalta. certainly the Jewish population of Poland was largely eliminated and estimates of Polish Jews killed run as high as 3 million.
      The bulk of the Russian / Ukranian losses are therefore ascribed to the policies of Stalin pursued in the 1930′s in his attempt to eliminate the bourgeoise and kulak classes in Russia/Ukraine.
      Meanwhile we should not forget that Germany and the Soviet Union did have a Non-Aggression Treaty prior to WW” as well as an agreement to carve up Poland between themselves, which was duly carried out. Russian claims of being the victims of Nazism seem a bit strained given their close working relationship before falling out.

  7. I’m not a denier by any means. But I do resent it still being used as a ‘get out of jail’ card. Rather more Ukrainians died at about the same time, we don’t hear much about them.

  8. John can I suggest you apply the same level of scrutiny to the so called climate debate. Despite the overwhelming evidence supported by the vast majority of reputable scientists (one half of the nutjobs argument you describe!) you seem to believe there is uncertainty around the occurrence of man made climate change. We see what we want to see it seems

    • The new religion, CAGW, the vast majority of reputable scientists…….true scientific discovery is always showing how ‘ reputable ‘ scientists get it wrong, like the rather inconvenient fact that there has been a very significant slow down in the ‘ global ‘ surface temperature, which actually cannot exist as an average as there are so many different surfaces and areas on the earth, the peaks of the Himalayas as compared to the bottom of the Atlantic Ocean comes to mind as two extremes which these ‘reputable ‘ scientists are at a complete loss to explain…..oh dear, just keep pumping out the propaganda to keep those ‘ scientists ‘ on the gravy train; never mind the constantly new research being published which keeps tearing that ‘ol hypothesis to pieces, did you know it is estimated that at least 100 scientific disciplines are needed to understand the climate, how many of these so called ‘ reputable ‘ scientists are expert in more than one?

  9. the nazis on trial never denied they killed 6 million jews there defenses were pedantic ones none of them claimed to be factually innocent.

    i think the fact they did not deny it at the time is proof enough that it happened..

    • The IMT took ‘judicial review’ of the extermination policy ie it was not for discussion. This left the defendants only defence to be ignorance thereof. Despite this at least 2 defendants, Goring and Streicher, made clear that they did not believe it.

  10. I have read this article thoroughly and (whilst I agree whole heartedly with the thesis that holocaust denial is fatuous, not to mention all of the Slog’s fears concerning the Muslim Brotherhood) find it a bit of a mess, logically. The fact that some people deny the holocaust as part of a ‘mission’ to do down Jews generally, or that the Muslim Brotherhood has an ‘iffy’ track record, is utterly irrelevant to the issue of whether the State of Israel should have been founded where and when it was. Other details are then slipped in. Other Arabs, it is said, were unpleasant to the Palestinians before the Jews arrived. (So?) The British treated the Jews as terrorists. (Some of them were, and they were all of them pouring into a British protectorate with the undisguised ambition of creating a state for themselves.)
    This is one of the Slog’s looser pieces, I think. The Jews of Europe were (sadly) not the only people to have been subject to ethnic cleansing policies. What was done to them, individually and as a race, was nauseating. The wrong that was done to them, however, can’t in itself justify the wrong that they have done in Palestine – and I scanned this article intently looking for some argument that might suggest it could. But argument there is none.

  11. I agree with you about this John. Its like nowadays some people are all of a sudden trying to change history. They’re doing the same thing about Jesus Christ, trying to make out he was married. They did a stupid Stone Age book with hinges and tried to pretend it was from the Stone Age, I can’t find that on the internet any more but it was in the newspapers and on television at the time. They are desperatly trying to rewrite history.

    • Next they’ll be saying he was risen from the dead and did magic with water like walking on it and then turning it into grog (most likely other way round)

  12. It’s one hell of a minefield to go stumbling through however. I feel it must pointed out that , more often than not, those choosing to deny and those belligerent about the actual figures are often as guilty as each other of bending the truth.

    If the question is, did the Nazis murder 6 million Jews in the death camps then, the answer is unequivocally no. If however, the question is, did the Nazi regime facilitate and actively encourage the death of 6 million Jews then, this time the answer is unequivocally yes.

    The last time I looked during WW2, 2 million Jews were killed in situ in the lands they had lived in all their lives, by the local population and in a good few cases, without a single German in sight. They were encouraged and often armed by the Nazi “liberators” however, these horrendous massacres were often sadly, spontaneous outburst by anti Semitic locals, from Latvia to the Ukraine.

    Then there’s the huge number of Jews who like their Slavic, gay, left wing etc etc comrades were worked to death or died simply of a total lack of neglect, disease etc in the concentration camps such as Dachau. There is a difference between a concentration camp and an extermination camp, Semantics it maybe however, history is surely about the truth however uncomfortable it might be?

    Of the 6 million Jews murdered under the aegis of National Socialism in WW2, the number slaughtered in specifically designed death camps as part of the final solution, is nothing like 6 million and probably, is considerably less than 2 million.

    As a footnote, for donkey’s years I couldn’t understand the total antipathy that the Israeli state had towards Yasser Ararfat It was only when i discovered that he was the protege of the Grand Vizier of Jerusalem, the man charged by the Nazis with the organisation of the “final solution” in the Middle east , should they have conquered it that, I understood why they disliked and distrusted him so much.

    I remember you defending Iain Duncan “psycho” Smith against accusations he’s a complete and utter cad. The facts are these though. With IDS’s record on human rights, had he been a camp commandant of a POW camp in WW2 he would have undoubtedly been charged with “war crimes” and the deaths of 1000s of people by “wilful neglect”

  13. “By entering into the arena of argument and counterargument, of technical feasibility and tactics, of footnotes and citations, by accepting the presumption of legitimacy of debate on certain issues, one has already lost one’s humanity” (1969)
    …The Holocaust was the most extreme atrocity in human history, and we lose our humanity if we are even willing to enter the arena of debate with those who seek to deny or underplay Nazi crimes” (1992)

    ~ Noam Chomsky

  14. Holocaust denial, is brainless and shows a total ignorance of what the Jews suffered, but I don’t think it gets to the core of why a group(ing) of people are mistrusted or hated.
    In a belief system, ANY belief system ( Christians, Jews, Muslims, ….Neocons? …Communists?….), there becomes an inevitability that those who believe, and cluster around the central tenet of that belief, will, sooner or later begin to see themselves as the ‘chosen ones’, the ‘chosen people’, and the ones with ‘righteousness’ on their side. This in itself is fairly innocuous, until that group of ‘chosen ones’ conclude that everyone else that doesn’t ‘believe’, are lesser beings, that must be converted, or controlled, or if all else fails, eliminated.
    The believer (in anything), is not the threat. The threat begins when that believer, either singularly, or as a cohort of believers, begin to mobilise their Crusade, on the non believers.
    On the issue of Israel, I suspect that the real dumbass manoeuvre was to ‘drag n drop’, two different sets of ‘believers’, into the same Middle East back yard, and then be totally gobsmacked by the 60 years of ensuing fireworks.

  15. “the Jews entirely removed from a desert they have wandered about in for nearly 4,000 years”

    Not sure about that one, John.

    I’m not an expert on this at all, so perhaps someone could clarify:

    1. Aren’t there two types of ‘Jew’?
    2. Isn’t one of these types the Khazars, i.e. Ashkenazi Jews?
    3. Didn’t the Khazars originate from modern-day Georgia.
    4. If point 3 is correct, wouldn’t this explain why such ‘Jews’ do not resemble any other tribe in the middle east….you know having blond hair, blue eyes etc?

    Anyone enlighten us all on this?

    Thanks in advance.

    • @Coppersterling.Brilliant book,Shlomo Sand,The invention of the jewish people,published 2009 by Verso,brilliantly researched,destroys several myths.

    • My family fell into the Holocaust denial nonsense and they harp on and on about the Khazars “not actually being Jews.” What crap. If they follow the Jewish religion, then they are Jews – end of story. The Khazars adopted Judaism the same way that the Europeans adopted Christianity. What’s the difference?

      • +10 for logic.
        The difference seems to be that certain non-Jews do not see the issue as being a religious one; rather, as with the Nazis, they perceive it as racial, i.e. if your grandparents were Jewish, then, even if you are a total atheist, you are still considered to be of the Jewish “race” (and you’d have surely found yourself in the camps under Hitler.) This even applies in inter-marriage situations, where one of the partners might be say, Catholic, and the children brought up as Christians – amongst the fraternity of “Jew-outers”, they wouldn’t be able to escape by virtue of their actual spiritual faith or lack of it.

    • @coppersterling
      How many types of Christians do you think there are? Or are they all from the same stock? How about Muslims? Are you suggesting that modern-day Jews belong to a tribe? Are you aware that over the centuries it was a practice for Arabs to take slaves from whatever state they had invaded, including the capture of European ships; this has inevitably resulted in a mixing of the gene-pool, resulting in some contemporary Arabs with “western” features. The question really is what does it matter how YOU define what people are, rather than how they see themselves.

      • @ John, alexi, and rkae:

        There’s a MASSIVE difference between a SPIRITUAL homeland and a land of your ancestors.

        There are millions of Roman Catholics…….should they all claim to be entitled to live in Rome?

        Obviously the answer is NO!

        But hey, don’t allow facts get in the way of a bit of land claiming, eh.

      • coppersterling:

        If Christians want to claim that Rome is a Christian land, then any and all Christians (no matter what their color or genetic makeup) who want to live there and can fit there may do so, and I’m perfectly happy with that. If someone takes up Judaism and feels he/she wants to live in Israel, then I’m happy with that.

        Why are you so wrapped around the axle about tribes; about the need for being genetically connected to a religion? It’s frankly bizarre. The entire Khazar argument is nonsensical. They adopted Judaism. They’re Jews.

        I’m just incapable of getting angry because there’s one incredibly tiny patch of land in the middle east that isn’t ruled over by Muslims. It actually provides a much-needed bit of counter-Islam to the area.

    • The Khazar thing, convincing as it sounds, isn’t actually right, at least according to the genetic studies I’ve read about.

    • In answer to your questions:

      1. No, there are many types of Jews. You are displaying a Eurocentric bias by labelling all Jews as belonging to one of two main European Jewish subgroups, the Ashkinazi and Sephardim. The former traditionally were found in central and eastern Europe, and the latter in southwestern Europe.

      2. No, Khazars have nothing to do with Ashkenazi Jews. The Khazars were a Turkic people living to the east of the Black Sea some of whom may have converted to Judaism. However, others converted to Christianity or Islam. However, Ashkenazi Jews have no relation to them.

      3. The Khazars being Turkish probably originated in East or Central Asia (there is evidence that the Turkish, Mongolia, Korea and Japanese languages are related). Genetic studies of Ashkenazi Jews show that they originated in the Middle East Between 2500 and 5000 years ago and share cllose genetic relationships to other Jewish groups, and also relationships with other middle eastern peoples. So far, genetic research has not shown any linke between Ashkenazi Jews and the Khazars.

      4. First of all, while some Ashkenazi Jews may have blue eyes and blonde hair, these traits don’t predominate amongst them. Moreoever, while uncommon, Blue eyes and blonde hair are found amongst other Middle Eastern peoples (I am assured of this point by a Chaldean friend who says it is found amongst her community). Furthermore, the genetic evidence points to the male lineage of Ashkenazi Jews having originated in the northern fertile crescent (Ur of the Chaldees), but the female lineage has some European influences, which would further explain why Ashkenazis may be somewhat fairer than other Jews. So it’s pretty obvious how they came to be. Jews (quite possibly traders or merchants moved into Europe and married and converted local women, which no doubt explains why so many people dislike them. First they come and make money of the Goys and then they steal their birds….

      ;)

      • @rkae who states that if all RC wanted to move to Rome, he’d be ” perfectly happy with that”

        Are you in Rome and speak for all the Romans? Or are you, as I expect, not even in that area, so why would your opinion matter on the subject?

        I’m quite sure the Roman people would be most unhappy if all RC’s decided to move to Rome, but if you think they’d be happy about it, then that’s your opinion.

        @the surley beaver. Thanks.

  16. This debate and JW’s analysis is an excellent example of how the one casualty (and IMO the most tragic) is the truth. The armies of jibber jabberers on both sides of these highly polarised debates just sling more and more muck until there is so much doo doo that the original issue is obscured.
    Of course all these polemics just scare the MSM away from discussion of these issues and instead they concentrate on fluff and trivia, leaving the mass populace uninformed and therefore vulnerable to the propagandists on all sides.

    My regret is that more and more of the issues that are challenging soicetal cohesion are being affected by this dynamic and politics is becoming an extension of this and no longer seems to function to move society forward.

    • IP, allow me to see differently .The Jewish nation and the Jewish people , have always represented “the canary in the mine shaft”. When the Jewish nation is victimized by bigotry , when we hear more of the Holohoax , when people are willing to see the Jew among nations to suffer again a fate similar to that suffered by the Jew of Europe , then we know that bigotry is likely to be a dangerous symptom of a more pervasive problem that will quickly spread everywhere.

  17. Israel is a Zionist state ! Not necessarily a Jewish one.
    John your comments = denial !
    “The occupying British treated the emerging Israeli State with appalling torture and gangster tactics, seeing them as ‘terrorists’.”

    The evidence suggests that the terrorists blew up the King David Hotel & murdered our serving countrymen and admin staff. As a matter of fact a militant right-wing Zionist underground organisation, the Irgun did it.

    Poitical Zionists are of the same mindset as the bolsheviks, the checka, the nazis, neocons, soviet communists , Mao share the same methodolgy revolutionary socialism. All in their time have holocausted the opposition.
    Who finances all of this and spreads the serpants poison ? Do they back both sides ?
    Why is “the holocaust” destruction by fire deemed a Jewish exclusive by our propagandists who are beyond critiscism ? What about the Armenian Christians, Vietnam, Nagasaki, Dresden, Coventry, Iraq, Gaza cast lead ?

    Source http://www.truetorahjews.org/lieberman

    THE ROLE OF ZIONISM IN THE HOLOCAUST
    Article by Rabbi Gedalya Liebermann – Australia

    he Zionist leaders in Switzerland and Turkey received this offer with the clear understanding that the exclusion of Palestine as a destination for the deportees was based on an agreement between the Gestapo and the Mufti.

    The answer of the Zionist leaders was negative, with the following comments: a) ONLY Palestine would be considered as a destination for the deportees. b) The European Jews must accede to suffering and death greater in measure than the other nations, in order that the victorious allies agree to a “Jewish State” at the end of the war. c) No ransom will be paid This response to the Gestapo’s offer was made with the full knowledge that the alternative to this offer was the gas chamber.

    These treacherous Zionist leaders betrayed their own flesh and blood. Zionism was never an option for Jewish salvation. Quite the opposite, it was a formula for human beings to be used as pawns for the power trip of several desperadoes. A perfidy! A betrayal beyond description!

    • Re: “The occupying British treated the emerging Israeli State with appalling torture and gangster tactics, seeing them as ‘terrorists’.”

      My understanding was that british officers and their wives were murdered by the irgun terrorists who would later head the new zionist state.

      And they celebrate the King David Hotel bombing over there : relatively recently the British ambassador protested to Israel that “We don’t think it’s right for an act of terrorism to be commemorated”.
      http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/1524552/Israel-celebrates-Irgun-hotel-bombers.html

      I don’t know why all over Europe the natives murdered their Jewish neighbours during those horrific times, but, the Palestinians had nothing to do with that, yet they have had to suffer under the Israelis for over half a century. Two wrongs don’t make a right.

      • Ho ho!
        O/T John, glad you mentioned the side-effects of fluoridation on the brain. Recent research has shown it penetrates the blood-brain barrier, reduces IQ and may be implicated in dementia, Alzheimers etc.

      • John, you naughty denialist you! That’s an extra dose of flouride in your cocoa tonight. It will be increased until you see the truth….

        As told by the King of the Potato People.

  18. Of all countries,given their history Israel should at least be understanding of what it is to be a nation without a state.
    Is Britain somewhat culpable for where we are today re the Balfour Declaration and the backtracking that went on then.

    • Oh, so it’s all our fault then, I might have known. So we must hang our heads in shame & teach our children to be ashamed of who they are, as we teach them about an event that happened before even I was born, in a country far away, to people of another country even further away. But of course we must have the ‘guilt trip to ensure that it never happens again…..

      • Not every problem in the world is Britain’s fault, but some are a direct result of decisions taken by British statesmen many years ago. Isreal/Palestine is one, and India/Pakistan/Afghanistan is another.

        It isn’t about blaming Britain, but about recognising that decisions that seemed sensible at the time can have far-reaching consequences.
        And generally speaking you only get to help screw up the world in the first place by being important and influential. No-one ever blames Luxembourg for anything because, well because Luxembourg hasn’t had much impact on the world outside its borders.

  19. The Middle East is populated by barking mad, religious maniacs, of various brands, Jews, Arabs, Christians, -well, the whole lot really.
    The UK has no national interest at stake in any of them whatsoever-and none are our eternal friends, or enemies.
    We should stay well out. The whole matter is of zero concern-and tiresome in the extreme.

  20. I would like to take this debate into our future,if i may try
    All these atrocities are about purging of different people from society
    So how did these fanatics passed present & future get to a position
    were such actions even took place
    Because the main stream political movements failed
    I have said before would Christianity be here today if Jesus had closed shop & asked his audience at the mount to return after launch,rather than feeding the five thousand( you do not need to be religious or even to believe this took place to follow my thought pattern here)i believe it would not,i believe it opened up the suggestion that when they heard of curing the ill turning the water to wine,people were more willing to listen & entrust
    So at this moment we have Muslims providing healthcare,food & water a social service to there people(here comes they are chopping of heads)yes they are
    Whilst in the west for personal greed they are being removed
    Now put yourself in the position of a nine year old,both just living their lives & ask yourself,why? is the brotherhood growing,whilst in the west unity is folding
    The Hayek’s/libertarians want individualism,break up,undermine any group religious,union or any sort of collective( well except the Hayak society of course)
    This makes the brotherhood far more dangerous,lets focus on sorting out our end of the problem,because these idiots need saving from themselves

  21. John i am glad you have picked this up. Normally i get on ok with Chris but this stuff has been bothering me for a while. He has some bloke before writing anti semitic stuff that i found uncomfortable and i couldnt figure out why Chris was posting it ..hes been banging on about woolwich for a while claiming Its a plot about racism and to feed hatred against. Muslims..to be honest i dont know..

  22. The stench of anti-semitism is still wafting around the world, on the net, here, and all because the Imperial Russian secret service needed a scapegoat to avert revolution with their fake Protocols of the Elder’s of Zion. Didn’t work, but it continues to leave a skid-mark on the face of the world in the shape of idiotic cabalist conspiracy theories…Not that I don’t think the Israeli Lobby in the US doesn’t have a pernicious influence there or that Zionism is about as revolting a manifestation of extreme Ethno-Nationalism as any other. History and politics are all about nuances, but racism of any sort is always monochrome.

  23. Hi John, I have to tell you that I have great respect for your unbiased views in which you obviously speak your own truth because you have obviosly done the research on whatever subject you write about. I also respect that when you do you also look behind silly misquotes which are printed in msm. You are right people don’t do proper research I certainly don’t although I do try wen the subject really gets to me. I in all honesty get my information from people like yourself. I do visit other sites too but I always feel truth from you. Thank you for all your hard work John

  24. The OED on the Holocaust:

    ‘ . . 2 . . d. the Holocaust: the mass murder of the Jews by the Nazis in the war of 1939–1945 . . The specific application was introduced by historians during the 1950s, probably as an equivalent to Hebrew ḥurban and shoah ‘catastrophe’ (used in the same sense); but it had been foreshadowed by contemporary references to the Nazi atrocities as a ‘holocaust’ (sense 2c): see quots. 1942–9.

    [1942 News Chron. 5 Dec. 2/2 Holocaust...Nothing else in Hitler's record is comparable to his treatment of the Jews...The word has gone forth that..the Jewish peoples are to be exterminated...The conscience of humanity stands aghast.
    1943 Hansard Lords 23 Mar. 826 The Nazis go on killing..If this rule could be relaxed, some hundreds, and possibly a few thousands, might be enabled to escape from this holocaust.
    1945 M. R. Cohen in S. Goldschmidt Legal Claims against Germany p.vi, Millions of surviving victims of the Nazi holocaust, Jews and non-Jews, will stand before us in the years to come.
    1949 Proc. Amer. Acad. for Jewish Research 18 193 Problems of Jewish Hurban research.]
    1957 Yad Washem Bull. Apr. 35/2 (heading) Research on the Holocaust Period.
    . . 1981 F. Rector Nazi Extermination of Homosexuals vi. 115 The number of gay Holocaust victims is substantial.
    . . 1985 A. Ramati And Violins stopped Playing (1986) 7 The Germans don’t even admit that there was a Gypsy holocaust..there are memorials in Auschwitz for all the nations whose people died there, except for the Gypsies!

  25. There have always been arguments about how many Jews were murdered by the Nazis in WW11. I do not know who many died in German run camps but several millions as nearly all the occupied countries deported their populations. I think the only Axis aligned state which made the choice to protect them was Bulgaria and I think a number survived in Hungary too. The rest of the allied states to Germany, such as Croatia, Baltic States, Ukraine the Muslims of Bosnia and Kosovo actively murdered millions more people including Serbs and Gypsies. They were worse than the Nazis but all the murders were ultimately their responsibility for unleasing the terror. The Croats were the worst killers of all and yet were helped to escape to Argentina in the ratlines run by the Vatican after the war. Not rounding up all their criminals then and early recognition by the Vatican and Germany in the 1990s resulted in a repeat of more war crimes in the 1990s.

  26. Forever a thorny issue. To the best of my belief the holocaust agenda was launched around the time of the “Lima declaration” (1972) and the European Act. The first view in the press of the 6 million dimension appeared around the time of the first world war (I have the clippings somewhere).

    Real numbers are irrelevant: The agenda requires 6 million Jewish people to die before Israel would be re-established. Hence we may reasonably presume that the birth of “^ million jews dead” at the time of WW1 means effectively the “State of Israel” was supposed to be founded at that time. Circumstances (reality) did not live up to expectations, so that the Treaty of Versailles was concocted to assure WW2, and the next opportunity. Thanks to the pernicious British establishment requiring Americans entry to the war, here we are.

    The 1947 Red Cross Report itself is a real eye opener. I have the original on a drive somewhere.

    John, from your writings I would accept that you are pro zionist, but would say that is your business, and that you must have your reasons. Supposedly 80% of Camerons’ lot are zionists, certainly Osborne is. To my mind that is Oxfords job: To turn out Rothschild lackeys fit for high office in Gov Corp. Moral fibre, integrity not required for our glorious leaders. Just obedience to the Luciferian Banking cabals. I am not. I still hope this financially structured political cesspit will topple and give us a chance at proper government: The description of which would take days and involve the word local.

    You mentioned Gulag Archipeligo. Well an even better book was written by Alexandr that is utterly banned outside Russia. Can you guess why? The Russian revolution was a jewish operation funded by jewish bankers including many well known names. The Cheka were predominantly jews. Stalin, beria, trotsky Lenin, all jews, Stalins real name was Djugashvilli. He began as a coffee house reactionary jew. A well known Jewish lady has on video informed us that Multi culti, diversity, and weaponised mass immigration is a jewish agenda. She even has the gall to say that jews will resented because of this. She spoke truth of course, but her admission was designed to create division. I have known a few jews in my time, and only one supported zionism. The real semites are the relatively low number of sephardic jews and….Palestinians. The Israelis are largely Ashkenazim (Khazars), and they are not Semites: They are of Mongol extraction.

    Believe what you will. Our whole world is a MSM structured illusion.

    • This quote is most probably a good indication of Rothschild’s Khazar Mafia:

      “”I know the blasphemy of them which say they are Jews, and are not, but are the Synagogue of Satan.” Revelation 2:9

      • Copper and Harry
        Do you have the remotest idea how deranged your writings look – a million Jews die to pave the way for creation of Israeli State? Jewish conspiracies? Sigh.

      • What an extraordinary clap trap , totally divorced from reality. Having lived through the war and our family having been engaged in hiding jews from the nazis I dispair at you and your cronies stupidity. However now I am 81 I am getting tired of arguing with some unwhashed longhaired nonenities and only hope that the times of 40-45 will not be visited upon you

      • They don’t look deranged to everyone. These two replies have not resorted to name calling and what basically amounts to “trust me, I did a university project on this subject”.
        I personally would like to see unbiased teaching (like its going to happen) if it is going to be taught in schools. Why should only jewish history count?
        I did not realise you were so pro zionist, this article makes that very clear, I am pleased you wrote it.

    • Harry, I quote from you; “The first view in the press of the 6 million dimension appeared around the time of the first world war (I have the clippings somewhere).”

      So the holocaust figure was arrived at before it actually happened. I love you guys, you were put on this world for me to laugh at.

    • .” Stalin, beria, trotsky Lenin, all jews, ”
      Neither Stalin, Lenin or Beria were Jewish, although Trotsky was. You’re full of sh*t, basically.

  27. Thanks, John, that was even-handed and brilliantly written. I lived in Israel for some time, during the days when the Samaria was relatively peaceful, before that idiot Baruch Goldstein did so much to stoke the tinderbox. My home was 500 meters from the Green Line, and I used to walk over the “border” to have coffee in an Arab cafe in Tulkarem every Saturday morning. I just had to speak to the Arabs in German and English; we got along just fine.

    As a very pro-Israeli person, I nevertheless sigh when I hear of the latest Israeli stupidity in tactical behaviour which hands propaganda victories to the Palestinians, but I was in receipt of the millions of Euros handed to the Pals by the EU, I could build a paradise in Judea Samaria and Gaza.

    The Saudis are correct about the Pals; even “our Boris” came out with a cracker of a Boris-ism while visiting Yasser Arafat. He was looking at the weeds growing out of the rubble caused by a long-past Israeli attack on his compound, when Yasser said (looking for sympathy) “Look at this! What is a man to do!”

    Boris replied “Well, you could clear this lot up, for a start!”

  28. Excellent article, sir!

    But all the qualifiers here about “…well, there’s that damned Israel lobby…” How many other causes have lobbyists? How is it any more pernicious for Israel to “peddle its product” than it is for every other country, ethnicity, sexual preference, or corporate interest?

    • There’s a slight difference between lobbying and having Russia’s, America’s and Britain’s balls in vice and effectively dictating their policies by dint of you secret service having the dirt on everyone. Given the precarious nature of Israel’s existence it was understandable however, some of the paedos who have not been prosecuted “got away with it” partly, because of this sort of black op shenanigans. It’s generally accepted that, at one point, Phil the Greek, a British Cabinet Minister and one of the high ranking Russki diplomats in London were all shagging the same Mossad agent.,

  29. Only argue with one bit of that John.
    ” The occupying British treated the emerging Israeli State with appalling torture and gangster tactics, seeing them as ‘terrorists’.”

    Terrorists being correct for those who kill British soldiers on duty -and there because they were told to be there. That was before Israel actually existed and these.terrorists did in fact kill British soldiers between 1917 and 1948 mostly in the last few years of course. As with the IRA bastards they went on to be politicians and have been forgiven…..by all but the relatives of those they murdered.

    As far as I can quickly tell, Palestine had not been part of Egypt for at least 500 years but a part of the Ottoman empire

    • (i) Very doubtful – see http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/Holocaust/hitlerjew.html

      (ii) “Adolf Hitler was nominated once in 1939. Incredulous [sic] though it may seem today, the Nazi dictator Adolf Hitler was nominated for the Nobel Peace Prize in 1939, by a member of the Swedish parliament, an E.G.C. Brandt. Apparently though, Brandt never intended the nomination to be taken seriously. Brandt was to all intents and purposes a dedicated antifascist, and had intended this nomination more as a satiric criticism of the current political debate in Sweden. ( At the time, a number of Swedish parliamentarians had nominated then British Prime Minister Neville Chamberlin for the Nobel Peace Prize, a nomination which Brandt viewed with great skepticism. ) However, Brandt’s satirical intentions were not well received at all and the nomination was swiftly withdrawn in a letter dated 1 February 1939.”

      Source: http://www.nobelprize.org/nobel_prizes/facts/peace/

      Acording to the same source, Churchill WAS nominated seriously, but got only the Literature Prize.

  30. Oh dear, oh dear talk about venturing where angels fear to tread. Oh well got my beer and popcorn, now I shall relax and let the crazies amuse me. It’s effing hilarious how they think anyone would take such swivel eyed loons seriously.

    Go ahead crazies, I can’t sleep anyway.

  31. To those lambasting the Jewish “terrorists” for targeting the occupying British forces, really! Take a step back and look at history.

    Trying to oust an entity that is perceived as a persecuting occupier or merely as a tyrannical régime has been with mankind forever. Simply look at the French Resistance in WWII, who knocked off thousands of German soldiers on duty just “doing their job”. Or their earlier compatriots in 1789, hoping to end the oppression of their royal rulers. As for the Jews who conspired against the Tsar in Russia – the tsarist régimes had long been a source of cruel tyranny and one could argue those conspirators were really freedom fighters. The reason the Revolution leaders comprised an unusual number of Jews was because they were proportionately better educated than the man-in-the-street and had suffered particular persecution under the tsar. That the revolution was usurped by further tyrants was clearly not the general intention.
    Question = what should such people do? Sit and wait for a liberator or some divine angel to implement “democracy” in their lands?

    One so often encounters a blind hypocrisy that sees an issue from one perspective only – one’s own. As John has so lucidly pointed out, it requires an effort to verify the facts and put oneself in other’s shoes.

    • Um, weren’t British forces trying to prevent the Jews from occupying other people’s land? Do you really seek to compare the Jews in Palestine at that time with the French resistance defending their own land? To the question you pose (what should such people do?) the answer maybe is: politely request asylum in a land that is not your own.

      • @ Colin Davis
        Um, I think you’ll find that both Jews and Arabs had lived in the region called Palestine for a couple of thousand years, many of the Arabs being nomadic tribes, but all had a traditional right to live there. The creation of a Jewish state to give a homeland for a continuously persecuted people over many centuries, culminating in WWII and thousands of dispossessed and homeless refugees, doesn’t mean it was acceptable, or right, to disenfranchise other peoples living there; however, it’s what the UN agreed to. in 1948 many Arabs left Israel at the urging of the neighbouring Arab countries who were planning a war on the newly created state (which they subsequently lost). You are probably also unaware that following that 1948 war, one million Jewish refugees had to flee those 22 neighbouring Arab states leaving most of their belongings behind, many ending up in tents in refugee camps in Israel but others “politely requesting asylum” in other countries.

        Much of the terrorist action against the Brits was because of the earlier refusal of Britain to open the borders of Palestine to Jewish immigrants escaping from Europe. Boats full of immigrants were returned by the British to Germany and guess what happened? They were taken to the camps and murdered! Some might consider that a good enough reason to bomb the British.

        The King David Hotel was the site of the British military command and the British Criminal Investigation Division. The Irgun chose it as a target after British troops invaded the Jewish Agency June 29, 1946, and confiscated large quantities of documents. At about the same time, more than 2,500 Jews from all over Palestine were placed under arrest. The information about Jewish Agency operations, including intelligence activities in Arab countries, was taken to the King David Hotel.

        A week later, news of a massacre of 40 Jews in a pogrom in Poland reminded the Jews of Palestine how Britain’s restrictive immigration policy had condemned thousands to death.

        Irgun leader Menachem Begin stressed his desire to avoid civilian casualties and said three telephone calls were placed, one to the hotel, another to the French Consulate, and a third to the Palestine Post, warning that explosives in the King David Hotel would soon be detonated.

        On July 22, 1946, the call to the hotel was apparently received and ignored. Begin quotes one British official who supposedly refused to evacuate the building, saying: “We don’t take orders from the Jews.”

        In contrast to Arab attacks against Jews, which were hailed as heroic actions, the Jewish National Council denounced the bombing of the King David.

        For decades the British denied they had been warned. In 1979, however, a member of the British Parliament introduced evidence that the Irgun had indeed issued the warning. He offered the testimony of a British officer who heard other officers in the King David Hotel bar joking about a Zionist threat to the headquarters. The officer who overheard the conversation immediately left the hotel and survived.

        It’s quite amazing how history can become distorted.

    • “That the revolution was usurped by further tyrants was clearly not the general intention.”

      Many of those “further tyrants” were also Jewish.

  32. [Not one of your best reports and it tends to undermine the quality of your other analyses as well as giving a boost to the people you are criticising. I have liked all the Jews(possibly in the teens) I have met.I was not aware of any Meyer Lansky types.I have to admire the skill of Israelis in finding means to defend Israel.This includes the skill of pro-Israeli opinion-formers,for instance, in the US and UK-not always in the host country's best interests.I have no reaI criticism of your Holocaust section. Prior to 1948 the UK had a mandate over Palestine. I could not find any reference in your report to the exodus of Arabs when Israel was founded, nor to the existence of Palestinians in refugee canps.Post 1948 Jewish settlements were set up in what was a Palestinian area.Finally,I think it is reasonable to wonder what a state in the whole area of pre-1948 Palestine would be like in 2100 if the size of the Arab population expanded more rapidly than the Jewish one].

    • John Moar you add some good points,which i agree with,but why does it diminish other work,show me some one who knows & gets everything right & i will show you heaven

  33. I had a friend who was a photographer attached to the army units that liberated Auschwitz. Many years afterwards he was interviewed by the BBC for a programme they were putting together.
    Reliving the memories he had had to repress for over forty years caused him to have a nervous breakdown from which he never recovered. He had seen things no man should see.

  34. Hey John, I never once mentioned a a specific conspiracy, nor have I suggested the Holocaust didn’t occur or wasn’t a horrendous part of our collective history.

    HOWEVER, like I stated above: To suggest that the crop of people currently in Israel have an ANCESTRAL claim on that land is utter bollocks. The Khazars are from Georgia – FACT! This is why they look nothing like the, er, Palestinians ………and other Arab tribes.

    Claiming Israel is their SPIRITUAL home would be a different matter, but that is not what you implied with your obviously biased statement concerning them ‘wandering that region for over 4000 years’.

    You are factually incorrect…..sorry if that upsets you and you need to retort with the tried-and-tired response of ‘conspiracy nut’.

    As for the Roth…..they are the Khazar MAFIA.

    There are Italian MAFIA too, and guess what? Not all Italians are part of the mafia, just like all Khazars are not part of the Khazar Mafia.

    Nonetheless, the Khazars DO NOT have a SPIRITUAL homeland in Israel – FACT!

    • Edit:
      “Nonetheless, the Khazars DO NOT have an SPIRITUAL homeland in Israel – FACT!”

      Should read:
      “Nonetheless, the Khazars DO NOT have a ANCESTRAL homeland in Israel – FACT!

      Claiming a spiritual homeland is a whole different matter from claiming an area is one of your forefathers. As I’m sure you’re well aware.

      PS The holohoax agenda was handed as a remit to Nick Griffin in the UK – at least at one time it was. Not surer why Spivey fell for it, perhaps he’s not that bright.

      • Coppersterling
        Their has been a Jewish enclave in that area for millennia,just because they have come from around the world since Israel was formed makes no difference at all
        Many in Ireland but particularly in Pakistan other castes came from all over India & Bangladesh
        Do these also have no right to their currant residency in Pakistan

      • Just to state i am anti Israeli policy but i am not anti Jewish,their is no inconsistency in that comment or any relating issues at all
        I can not see Israel surviving the forth coming betrayal that there policies will have allowed to happen

      • I’m not, and quite a few – including yourself – have indeed added to my understanding on this matter.

        It would certainly appear to be more of a spiritual home than an ancestral one, which in my humble opinion is a big difference.

        Anyway, I’m done with this site. John makes good posts, but if anyone disagrees, or even questions him, he just insults them. Not my cup of tea to associate with such uncivil types.

        G’luck, surlybeaver.

  35. Pingback: THE REDEFINED MEANINGS DERIVATIVES SECTOR | The Slog. 3-D bollocks deconstruction

  36. @the ghost. You wrote, “Many in Ireland but particularly in Pakistan other castes came from all over India & Bangladesh
    Do these also have no right to their currant residency in Pakistan”

    Not quite sure what you’re stating?

    Are you saying many muslims have moved to Pakistan from India and Bangladesh? Why does the sentence start with the mention of Ireland?

    The fact remains that John’s statement “the Jews entirely removed from a desert they have wandered about in for nearly 4,000 years” is untrue.

    I like John’s writings, and I guess this is a controversial topic so emotions are quite heated here. By-the-way, I do think a holocaust occured and that it was a terrible event. Which group, however, bankrolled the NAZI’s? Was it not the Rothschild – i.e. Khazar Mafia – controlled B.I.S.?

    John never mentions the Rothschild’s…….not sure why?

    • I am pointing out that displacement has taken place worldwide & the UN recognises these territories & the countries recognise the people living in them,so why claim a certain ethnic group has no claim/right & in this case were some Jews did,
      Also many groups including Jews roamed the old Ottoman Empire without owning land for millenia some of which was desert
      If anyone went into great detail every time they right about all the interested parties then this blog would not be worth writing
      Getting snip-its like your Rothschild’s only adds to the post,John not mentioning it doesn’t

  37. @John

    I’m assuming the “oh do please f off” was aimed at yours truly.

    That’s fine, if you believe those currently in Israel have been “wandering that land for over four thousand years” then that’s your choice. Just thought I’d try to point out the obvious.

    Sheet, even a quick visual scope of the Israeli’s and those from the lands around them indicate that it’s unlikely they’re from that region :-) Blonde hair, blue eyes? C.mon.

    Bye, you’re removed from by subscription list, at your request.

  38. http://pauleisen.blogspot.co.uk/2012/12/how-i-became-holocaust-denier-by-paul.html

    It’s a good place to start to unravel the deceptions. He’s Jewish by the way.

    The basic facts of the ‘denier’ case.

    http://www.thetruthseeker.co.uk/?p=59218

    On the use of the six million figure prior to WW2 consider this article.

    http://www.thetruthseeker.co.uk/?p=24369

    There is, of course, much more to untangle in this web of deceit. The biggest victims of which are the ordinary Jews themselves.

  39. I think holocaust denial is symptomatic of the near monopoly status the 1940s Jewish holocaust is granted by mainstream discourse.
    If more space were given to acknowledging all the other holocausts – including the ongoing holocausts enacted from our side – holocaust denial – in all of its manifestations – would disappear.

  40. A poor article that often reverts to abuse as argument. Most so-called Holocaust “deniers” question whether the camps were extermination camps where people were sent to be killed, or concentration camps where people died through mal-nourishment and disease. Pictures of emaciated survivors or corpses in gas ovens support either thesis. Was Zyklon-B used to de-louse people or gas them?

    Personally, I find the whole gas chamber thing hard to envision. The inhabitants of Hut 27 go for a shower and don’t come back, same with Hut 28, and then the poor sods in Hut 29 quietly queue up for the same? Hmmm. I am reminded of the sensational “lampshades made out of human skin”, and “soap from human body fat stories”, which have since been admitted to be pure bunkum, and right up there with the “Hun impaling babies with helmets” line of World War 1. Winners write the history, and sometimes winners feel the need to justify their own actions with a bit of propaganda.

    “And so to the six million number. Google it as ‘Six million holocaust deaths, true or false?’ and an endless stream of rabid nutjob sites pop up, trotting out the usual garbage – not a single piece of which can ever be verified or viewed.”

    Simply not true. The plaque at Auschwitz claiming four million died was replaced in 2002 by a plaque lowering the toll to 1.5 million (mostly Jews). So it seems the “six million” figure is in fact open to conjecture.

    Finally, we do not hear about Stalin’s atrocities and the Gulag Archipelago because that event is not continually rammed down people’s throats decades after the event – a lack of coverage perhaps explained by (a) Russians not being influential in Hollywood and the US media, and (b) the fact that closer inspection of the Gulags might reveal the unsavoury role Jews have played in Stalin’s atrocity.

    The latter point is a particularly sensitive issue, as the mantra that Jews are perpetual victims must always be maintained. Without this status – and the depiction of the Holocaust as a unique evil greater than all others – that terrible event cannot be invoked at every turn to suppress any form of nationalism by Western peoples. It is for this reason – the use of the Holocaust as a tool to enforce mass immigration and the multiculturalist dogma that in the end will result in the death of the West – that the facts behind the Holocaust are so hotly debated, and why incidences of Holocaust “denial” are on the increase. Such a debate need have nothing to do with Jew hatred – indeed, if the Islamisation of the West is to continue unimpeded because any resistance is met with the cry of “Nazi!” to induce an almost Pavlovian submissive response, Jews in Europe will be the first to suffer.

    To conclude, Holocaust “denial” in the sense that Jews weren’t targeted and didn’t suffer might be ridiculous, but Holocaust scepticism as to the details and motives for the Holocaust industry are entirely justified, and indeed welcomed.

    • Holocaust denial,I have witnessed K18 members sprout the kind of rubbish you have just written
      Yes the jews are no better than any other breed of humanity
      Your a disgrace to the human race

      • ghost: typical response. All emotion, no thought. And no actual counter to what I have written.

        Will this response be allowed, I wonder? Or is it OK for some posters to call others a “disgrace to the human race” while the target is denied a robust right of reply?

    • “Winners write the history”
      ~Survivor Bias~
      ADB : , hits the core reason why we here (none of us), can ever get to the true picture of historic events.
      One example extracted from further up the thread :
      ” For decades the British denied they had been warned. In 1979, however, a member of the British Parliament introduced evidence that the Irgun had indeed issued the warning. He offered the testimony of a British officer who heard other officers in the King David Hotel bar joking about a Zionist threat to the headquarters. The officer who overheard the conversation immediately left the hotel and survived.
      It’s quite amazing how history can become distorted.”
      This British officer’s testimony is considered ‘evidence’, of the warning phone call, and we have to take his word because he survived, and the dead cannot contradict him.
      But what if during that period of the explosion, when this officer should have been in the building, he was in fact elsewhere, (say), with his mistress, or just getting pissed in a bar someplace else? Wouldn’t you want to cover your ass with a credible story, that gets you off the hook as to why you didn’t die like the rest of his colleagues?
      Like ADB said :
      winners (and survivors), write history.

      • Winners do figures can always be contested,but to contest that because these figures are contested that they fact carry less kudos,even to cast doubt that it did take place,once most of the participants winners & losers are gone is shameful,Schindler must have been very cruel to stop Jews getting a shower,when they were obviously dirty

  41. Pingback: SNAFU PROFITS: Yet again, the Chancellor makes one detail pay well, while ignoring the badly composed Big Picture. | The Slog. 3-D bollocks deconstruction

  42. You state the following “it’s a myth that Hitler’s regime was the greatest mass-murdering State of all time: that honour goes to the USSR, which slaughtered 12 million.”
    I personally didn’t think that it was the USSR, but that it was the good ol’ U.S of A that committed the worst genocide when they slaughtered nearly 100 Million Native Americans.
    Am I missing something, doesn’t this count?

    • If you think there were ever within 5% of 100m native Americans, then you’re delusional my friend. The peak populatiom of North American Indians was never more than 18 million, and may have been considerably less.

  43. This is really a reply to the alexei post and reply sequence (4.17 pm Sunday, above) which isn’t accepting further replies.
    To John Ward, who asks out of which hat I got the Maquis, the answer is alexei’s post, above mine. I was answering him.
    To alexei’s long response to me on historical matters, I am not sure a lengthy reply is needed. The post itself admits there was no case for the establishment of a Jewish state, but adds that it’s ok because the UN said so. We are dealing with a moral issue, basically, and the UN is no moral arbiter.
    The Israeli state could resolve most of its problems, however, if it learned a lesson from that tiny portion of alexei’s post and admitted to the world its original sin. Attitudes would change quite drastically if it did, I think.

    • Another good resource is to take 20 minutes to read Grossman’s ‘The Hell of Treblinka’. It was written as journalism soon after the remains of the camp were discovered but holds up well even today:

      http://www.desiquintans.com/permalink.php?PostID=231

      Contemporaneous Jewish reaction to the holocaust was more nuanced than simply waiting passively; look at the wikipedia articles on Chaim Rumkowski and Joel Brand, for example.

  44. Nice one, John, and very true.

    In addition, there are other kinds of Holocaust deniers – particularly amongst our liberal ‘inteligentsia’ and in Turkey. Firstly, there are those who deny the Armenian holocaust by the Turks, of the 1900s. Secondly, there are those who deny the Rhom (Greek) holocaust by the Turks in 1922, where some 400,000 Greeks were slaughtered and exiled in Smyrna (Izmir). Please read ‘Paradise Lost’ by Giles Milton.

  45. Can anyone please explain how there can be so many instances of the figure “6 million” long long long before WW2?

    I absolutely want to believe the official story I was taught at school but, come on,,, give me a coherent explanation of how on earth so many papers and Jewish journals could use this figure !

    http://zioncrimefactory.com/the-six-million-myth/

    • Milch was Jewish and he could hardly have given his “fasci” as this was an Italian Fasisct symbol.No one denies the Jews sufferd under the Nazis,but the three key lies which can easily be debunked with a little bit of homework are that the Nazis planned to exterminate the Jews,that six million perished and that there were gas chambers (it may come as a surprise to the indoctrinated and brainwashed that its long been debunked that there “extermination camps” on the territory of the Reich -its since been claimed that there were in Poland,but the only one in “existance” is a Soviet postwar agitprop “reconstruction” which even hardcore exterminationist”experts” say is a fake.Some 600 thousand Jews may have perished in WW II,the majority of them from disease and hunger in camps (due to the Allied advance in the last months of the war the supply system broke down and food deliveries were scarce.It is frightening that thus far the Jewish rulers of the Soviet Union,Hungary,Poland,etc. have not been called to account for the murder of millions under communism.For what went on in Russia,have a look at Nobel Prize winner A. Solzhenytsyns book Two Hundred Years Together”,snippets of which are on line.It hasnt been published in book form in English for some 20 years.Those in the loop know why.

      • Milch was not Jewish, and all senior OKW officers carried dress fascis. Like all of your denialist mates, you are full of shit, chum. ‘Exterminationists’? Dear God, another obscenity from the Lexicon that produced Holohoax. Go to Washington, read the facts. But mainly, piss off.

  46. “On 29th November 1947, the UN General Assembly partitioned the State, half for Egypt and half for the Jews.” Er, where did that come from? The Partition was about converting mandated Palestine into a new Jewish state and a new Arab state. Egypt voted against it.

  47. Nice language,Mr. Ward.I dont have time to do anyones homework.If nothing else,check out the book “Hitlers Jewish Soldiers”,or at least the Wiki bio,which describes Erhard Milch as a “pharmacist of Jewish descent”.German high ranking generals and Field marshals carried batons,not senior officers.Mr. Ward,Ive forgotten more on WWW II than youve read.I also read German,Croatian and Serbian(cyrillic alphabet).I used to think like you,but since Ive read some real history,starting around the 1980s,Ive deprogrammed my self from the nonsense that you and your cowardly and lying sources spout.I also laughed at the likes of Ernsz Zundel and ridiculed him,but now I know different.Youve almost missed the boat.It looks like you wont have time to clamber on board.I sincerely hope that you will in the future break free from the Matrix and come to your senses.If you or others wish to deprogramme themselves,for starters,I recommend the Institute for Historical Review and their publication “The Journal of Historical Review”,now out of print but all issues available on line.Objectively,how can anyone seriously argue with someone if he hasnt heard what he has to say.You probably still believe that the Nazis made soap and lampshades out of inmates.As Orwell said:”In times of universal deceit telling the truth is a revolutionary act”.Carry on being an unwitting zionist dupe and living in virtual reality or start familiarizing yourself with the facts.Its your call.Im your voice in the wilderness and I assure you you will remember me,sooner or later.

  48. The “New york Times” (Thursday,April 21,2005)under the title “Israel Sets Holocaust damages at $240 billion”,citing an official Israeli govt report,writes:”At the begging of 2004 1,092,000 Holocaust survivors were still living worldwide,about half of them in Israel.About 10 percent of survivors die each year,the report said”.Thats one million “survivors” half a century after the event.You dont have to be a demographic expert to see that something is rotten in the state of Denmark here.

  49. I too was shocked at Spivey’s holocaust denial post. Glad I’m not the only one who sees this. He, and the people who frequent his blog, feign concern about the Palestinians who live under Israeli rule but casual internet surfers should make no mistake that this guy is an out-and-out Nazi skinhead.

    Witness, for example, the virulent homophobia that runs through his blog. He, and his cronies strike me as very frightened, paranoid heterosexist males who are too cowardly to admit to their own insecurities and therefore take them out, in particular, on gay men. One wonders how he’d weave these intensely angry attacks upon the LGBT community into his anti-Zionism schtick?

    The recent posts about the Boston Bombing and the similarly tragic murder of Lee Rigby by total nutcases are also particularly sick.

    Yep, in short, the veneer of left-wing, supposedly anti-establishment radicalism just doesn’t cut it and the biggest ‘cover-up’ is their own blog – I mean, c’mon, the fig leaf is far too small even for ‘men’ of their miniscule stature;)

  50. Pingback: Chris Spivey » Blog Archive » Excuse me a moment. I just have something to deal with.

  51. Jews lie and they lie big, it’s what they do.
    So what’s new?

    PS – It should never be referred to as the “holohoax”, HorrorCo$t is far more apt.

  52. Pingback: THE MANNING CASE: lessons States never learn, and politicians don’t even think about | The Slog. 3-D bollocks deconstruction

  53. ‘not that many Arabs like the Palestinians much. … “an underclass nuisance who couldn’t organise dawn”.’

    With that one racist and irrelevant phrase you discredit the rest of your article.

      • Calm down man. Your remark is between the *single* inverted commas and includes the quote from your Saudi acquaintance in *double* inverted commas.

        The quote from the Saudi is irrelevant to your story. It’s simply racist.

        BTW I deplore holocaust denial.

  54. Pingback: John Ward – The Manning Case : Lessons States Never Learn, And Politicians Don’t Even Think About – 31 July 2013 | Lucas 2012 Infos

  55. This article drips with patronising, know-it-all, righteousness. So the author absorbed some orthodoxy in the 60s and is an expert? I guess since then you have not updated your knowledge with the works of Rassinier, Faurisson, Graf, Rudolf or Mattogno? Of course not, they are deniers and therefore frauds if not neo-Nazis, so just ignore them, they ve got nothing to say. Flat-earthers all and nasty with it! Much easier to believe that Sachsenhausen was a death camp and its orders for an insecticide prove this! Staying with the flock its much easier than thinking difficult thoughts.
    As for the pro-Israeli, anti-Palestinian bias words fail me. Put the victim in the dock why dont you?
    These two stances of yours make it very difficult to take anything else you write seriously. Its not just that you have a different opinion – its the castiron certainty that you are right, the lack of open-mindedness and the unwillingness to consider alternative viewpoints that make this post repellent.
    I apologise for such a critical first post but I have studied Holocaust denial for 13 years and taken an interest in Israel for more than 30 and I am irritated beyond belief my those holding an ignorant and frankly fanatical Jewish view of these subjects when a little study easily demonstrates their bogus nature. This is not just an intellectual matter. Supporting these views holds real-world consequences for the Palestinians, the Germans and more widely the whole of European man (yes Im a Racist too – yawn!)

  56. I’m puzzled. When I was being educated at school fifty years ago ( admittedly not a posh public school ) we were taught that the Second World War was a result of GERMAN aggression . Now that we are a part of the EU we seem to be revising history and those nasty Germans have now become NAZIS. So was Germany was full of NAZIS and GERMANS during the second world war years and it was only the nasty Nazis who were responsible for the debatable Holocaust ? Like I say, I’m confused.

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