OPINION: The immigration thing

mesnipThe Slog examines the cost, ecological and rabid consumption issues surrounding the human species….which is three times more numerous on the planet that it was in 1955. Applying this to the UK and Brexit issues surrounding immigration, he concludes that only a deranged ideologist would wish to make our social complexities even worse. This subject is about far more than immigration levels: but it is folly to think we can stay with the border controls as they are.

These are the standard arguments against more immigration into the UK:

  1. We’re overcrowded as it is: Britain is being paved over
  2. Home-grown religious nutters are always a potential outcome
  3. Our health and benefits systems are already struggling
  4. Multiculturalism has a lousy track-record.

My main problem with our population size isn’t among them, but I’m used to being contrarian – and quantitative opinion measurements do not prove the majority is right: historically, in fact, the majority is usually wrong. But taking each of the above arguments in turn:

Overcrowding. Sheer physical space needn’t be a problem if you have plenty of agricultural land to go round. We don’t: our home grown food and population density are in the Big 3 of Europe for being low and high percentages respectively. The Conservatives are riding a coach and six through every planning law in the UK, when they could use brown infill for building – which would also mean losing eyesores. (And as for fracking, don’t get me started).

Fundamentalism. The Home Office estimates that there are already 15,000 Jihadists at work in Britain. Typically, May doesn’t know whereTF they are, or who they are. Suffice to say, they do not wish us well. We should never have joined Bush’s ‘War on Terror’ and we should get out of NATO and Syria. But that doesn’t alter the fact that, even beyond violence and atrocities, radical Islam is not socially tolerant and does not share British values. So yes, it’s an issue: but if the Foreign and Home Offices knew which way is up, it would not be the potential future problem it clearly is.

Struggling Infrastructure. I don’t think anyone doubts that our health, welfare and State pension systems are cracking under pressure. That said, they’re under pressure because an ideologically constipated Government with no moral compass has decided they should be. Whatever Osborne, Altmann and Crabb do or don’t say to the Waspi Women, for example, the DWP/Treasury apex of incompetence chose those women as ‘an easy target’. But still, the point remains that if new immigrants are going to add to social costs, then we should wait until we’ve done the right thing by our own citizens before letting any more into Britain….I exclude humanitarian emergencies from that, be they of our making or not: but leaving the EU would lay us less open to other country’s cockups – as indeed would dumping NATO.

If those coming in fill an identified need, for the moment I would say fine, take them. But plan NOW to retrain the vast reservoir of under and unemployed UK citizens we already have.

Multiculturalism is an historic mistake. Oh dear, there – I’ve said it. I think our multi-ethnic society works well so long as ethnicities continue to celebrate their cultures without insisting society as a whole adopts them. Ultimately, however, every British citizen needs to sign up to one set of laws, and one set of liberal democratic principles. There is already educational choice in the UK (although it’s being undermined) and we don’t need any more. I am just as opposed our educational balance being undermined by privately-funded colleges as I am to Sharia schools – or Hissadic Schule for that matter – if they aim to usurp our supposedly depoliticised mainstream education models.

Ireland, Nigeria and India were not freak accidents, they are lessons to be learned…by everyone from imperialists and racists to fanatics and social anthropologists.


As I wrote at the outset, my objections to further immigration into the UK are much bigger than the above four put together. It’s merely part of my overall global view: as a species, there are far too bloody many of us.

The background to that view is not based on the one-dimensional, linear points often made about food, land space, or even water – although water supply maintenance will be an enormous problem in the medium term future.

Rather, it is to do with ecological balance, conservation, and the costly complications of running huge population sizes.

Homo sapiens is not as anti-Earth – yet – as the African elephant, but it is and aways has been rapacious in its consumption of every raw material from wood to energy. We are also pollutant on a number of levels: setting aside CO2 (about which I remain sceptical) we create human and other less biodegradable waste on a -literally – industrial scale.

And as for species fecundity and safety from predators, our numbers have trebled in the last 60 years. We have benefited enormously from technology and medical science, but these allow us to live even longer, have a far higher chance of reaching adulthood, and make us addicted to consumption of the pharma and comms products resulting from those advances.

The average Australian crocodile’s chances of becoming an adult are 1 in 14 million. Excellent you might think – but ours globally are 4 in 5: and we are infinitely more destructive than your croc.

Above all, the range of genetic influences, cultural mores, priorities, interests and anti-social behaviours that result from a populous, introspective thug species are hugely complex and unbelievably expensive. Worse still, our bureaucrats and politicians opt every time for the lowest common denominator “solution” to these complicated social groups: criminal reoffending alone has brought the judicial system to its knees, but there are endless studies proving how retraining and ‘tough love’ regimes can divide the reoffending rate by seven.

Further, we do not respond well to living in crowded conditions: if we did then we would be unique among higher primates. Violence and road rage rates in cities right across the West are far higher than they are in areas of lower population density.

So slotting that Weltanschauung back into the micro situation of Britain, I think a worsening of city crowding – alongside declining living conditions and incomes – would be an insane aim. I would like to see the Home Counties/London bias go, government vastly more devolved, and far more power given to local communities. But chiefly, I’d always support moves to heavily penalise (in tax terms) larger families; and for myself – although I recognise it is a drastic policy – while we have the time to retrain our own population – I would stop all immigration immediately.

That drastic move is only necessary because forty years of dilatory political correctness have made it so. And as we would not have the freedom to do that while remaining in the EU, it is one of the 187 other reasons I have already compiled for getting out on June 23rd.

Related at The Slog: 188 reasons to Brexit….and growing daily

50 thoughts on “OPINION: The immigration thing

  1. I have always questioned the apparent madness of politicians to create the current flood of migrants ,often with no seemingly connection to the British way of life but the answer is as always munnee. They need the instant tax collection to keep the neoliberal ,multinational model going to fund their rich elite dream going. There is no point waiting for the indigenous population’s kids to start paying tax as it takes too long for them to grow up and their already burdened parents can’t afford them. So quick cheap labour was required and is proven by the driving down of wage costs. Very few earn more than they did 10 years ago. If immigration stopped tomorrow they would have to wait on the next crop of children to reach tax paying age to fund the current system.

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  2. the political elite including the banking fraternity are parasites on our society and they are destroying us the host.. central banks are not sources of wealth but the exact opposite…interesting times we live in… thank you JW for giving words to what most of us feel.

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  3. This country is overcrowded, yes, but the world is not overpopulated.

    We can farm now both with hydroponics & aquaponics. We can farm vertically, in high rise buildings. Farm acreage is no longer a chief determinant of food production.We are now producing enough food to feed 10 – 20 billion people.

    Population pressures may well be the key to man’s progress: from hunter-gatherer to farmer to industrial revolution to now, all progress is accompanied by population growth, & very possibly caused by it. When Julian Simon, an economist interested in the environment & population numbers, began researching in the 60s, he thought that war & population growth were man’s 2 major problems. The data showed otherwise. Man’s prosperity has risen historically in direct correlation with population growth.
    I mucho recommend his book: The Ultimate Resource 2. The ultimate resource is human ingenuity.

    Look around you: we all now, in the West, live longer better & more disease-free than medieval kings did. Our job is to spread this prosperity to the rest of the planet. As man becomes more prosperous, he starts to care for his environment. Instead we are on course for a world where about 50 people have as much wealth as the bottom 3.5 billion people. We have multi-billionaires while people starve. Madness.

    We have billionaires like Bill Gates going on crusades in India causing 47,500 paralysis deaths in his depopulation drive. A Nazi. Madness.

    We have the mad US Empire supporting the Saudi export of thousands of extreme Wahabist islamic clerics to Madrassas all over the Islamic world since WW II. Madness. We see the mad US Empire false flag 9/11 blamed on their own CIA agent Osama Bin Laden & war declared on “Terror” & how many Islamic countries invaded & bombed since on various lies? Madness. We see the mad US bomb weddings & funerals in Afghanistan & Pakistan to create a plentiful supply of more terrorists to add to Western created Al Qaeda & ISIS. More madness. All slaughter aimed at depopulation. Madness.

    Meanwhile human progress is held back: nuclear fission power & fusion power, which could open a path to the stars, is stalled.
    For a glimpse at both man’s past destruction of his own species & a glimpse of a possibly boundlessly spacious & prosperous future, I mucho recommend a book by PhD nuclear engineer Robert Zubrin: Merchants of Despair.

    John Doran.

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  4. Anybody remember the Windrush? Before my time, but the thinking was simple: get people in from the West Indies who would happily do the menial jobs for pay that was inadequate to a native English person.

    The problem we have today, and I speak of Europe as a whole, not just Britain and the problems it leaves on the coastline of France. Because the same thinking saw the Americans force this thought on the Germans who had to allow the Turks into their country to achieve the same sort of end. And the French the Maroccans.

    There are a lot of very poor people in the countries that surround Europe, who see European minimum wages as the holy grail. Many of them would willingly do the kind of menial work that the British brought in their West Indians to do.

    There are two sides to this thought, however. The first is that the USA has damaged many of the countries through its military tail-wagging. Syria, Iraq, Afghanistan, Somalia, Libya to mention but a few. Countries that in many cases had bearable standards of living – with the exception of the Horn of Africa. The other side is that Europe, what with its mechanized industrialization, has so much need of people to (say) sweep the streets. It’s cheaper to use one machine to sweep the streets that is driven by one worker. There are just so many mechanical street sweepers that need driving, so many ditches that need digging, so many strawberries that need picking.

    In an economy where gang masters have already cornered the market for strawberry picking…

    If the migrant crisis was planned by the US, it has done its job: it has added a layer of society that is effectively dispossessed in the way many are in the US. This in itself will lead to discontent, even with substantial handouts from European states. Young, active men who sought jobs need more than enough to eat and a bunk to sleep in: they came to work.

    Europe’s problem is that there simply aren’t enough jobs for them to do… and the kind of people who seek jobs are not usually the kind who do find work for themselves to do (albeit that some of them do set up as hairdressers and market-stall holders and the like).

    Even so, there are just so many hairdressers needed in cities that already had established salons and businesses…

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  5. ecological balance, conservation, and the costly complications of running huge population sizes

    These are all viewed as business opportunities by the elite, who are remoulding society to maximize their returns and to ensure that there is a viable revenue source directed towards them when the current version proves inadequate.
    Nothing like trashing a society here and there, so that the mindless masses start demanding solutions.
    Expensive solutions, mind you. Problem, reaction, expensive solution.

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  6. Importing cheap labour to do so-called ‘menial’ jobs while paying an ever increasing number of the indigenous population to do nothing is economically unsupportable, deep folly: it can only end in tears. It really is that simple. When you factor in the resulting social complications, it becomes completely insane.

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  7. Gemma

    It’s all part of the ‘churn and burn’ model of enrichment for the few, which the Americans have made the only game in town, yes. Unfortunately, of course, the infection has spread.

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  8. @jd

    I disagree that the Earth is not overpopulated. Even if food production can keep up with the expanding number of mouths, (which frankly I very much doubt), I believe the ecological consequences of our current lifestyles will doom our ability to survive as a species. Modern agriculture is so heavily reliant on petrochemically derived pesticides, and mined fertilizers, (both of which are finite), that there are real limits to the number of our species that can be supported on this planet. I would argue that while it is true that “(a)s man becomes more prosperous, he starts to care for his environment.” the problem is that ‘we’ tend to exploit and destroy someone else’s, usually on the other side of the Earth.

    I also take issue with the conclusion you draw from “Man’s prosperity has risen historically in direct correlation with population growth.” I will accept this as true on its face, but as the old adage has it, correlation is not necessarily causation. Perhaps increased prosperity resulted in increased population. In the past few thousand years, technological improvements such as the use of draught animals and iron-shod plough-shares vastly increased the land available for cultivation. The development of pumping mills enabled the draining of wetlands such as the Fens, and the vast untapped wealth of the American continents became available for exploitation by intensive farmers. All of these would have resulted in increased food production and hence the ability to sustain greater populations. I would argue that we have reached the end game where there are no more ‘virgin lands’ to exploit.

    Despite the above, I don’t agree with your points about the vast disparity of wealth that have been engineered over the last century or so and the consequences of U.S. foreign policy.

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  9. Hiero,

    would it not be truer to say “the Americans have spread their infection”?

    Why is it that Anglo-Saxons have this habit of interfering in places they ought not, rather than working to build up their own economy??

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  10. Canexpat,

    one point of order: “mined fertilizers” – nitrate fertilizers haven’t been mined since WWI. The British fought battles with the Germans at Coronel and the Falklands which was to deny the Germans access to the Chilean mines. The British thought this would starve the German arms producers of the necessary explosives.

    However, unbeknown to the British, the Germans had developed enormous pressure vessels to compress the nitrogen from the air. Whilst this consumed enormous amounts of energy, it was still possible to produce nitrogen at an economic scale – and thus the Germans continued to fight. Had they employed their Zeppelins more effectively, they could have won it. (Only to have the Americans start something to bring the Germans down again… which they did with Hitler).

    After the war, the British and Americans stole the technology, as they had been unable to develop it for themselves.

    As mentioned, it uses vast amounts of energy… and that is the sting in the tail.

    Nitrates of this kind are also water soluble, and the farmer may well find half of his investment in fertilizer washed away before his crops can use it…

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  11. .”…as a species, there are far too bloody many of us.”
    If the foreign aid budget was measured in millions of condoms – I would be happy.
    ”Today, I am delighted to announce ( in pompous voice) that we will be sending 50 million condoms to Bongoland, with a similar amount to follow every 2 years”
    It’s the only way to stop thieving fornicators arriving on this planet without invitation with a sense of entitlement to the fruits of my ancestors hard work.
    Needs saying ……

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  12. @Jemma

    I was actually alluding to potash mining – something that is something of a growth industry in a couple of the prarie provinces over here.

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  13. When I was born in this country back in 1950 in Edinburgh, I was always aware that the regional and cultural diversity even amongst mainly white Anglo Saxons , Celts and picts was pretty amazing for such a tiny little island. From Cornwall to Kent from London through East Anglia from Wales through the Midlands up through Newcastle and into Scotland , there were accents and cultural variety enough to please anyone born here. I spend my 1970’s listening intently for my lessons in Cockney rhyming slang from young Denis Waterman in the Sweeny.
    Did I really need to import people from all over the world including some who lock women up in bin bags, who cut their Vulvas and sew them up to keep them pure, do I really need people thinking justice involves looping off people’s hands, do I really want to live with people who murder their daughters for attempting to marry an unapproved man, or fling acid in their faces ,do I want to live in a country where I can get thrown into prison just for suggesting I personally find these life styles unacceptable and where poor old Gazza can be charged for a poor taste joke.
    When in Rome as they say , and if you don’t want to be a Roman then leave because you are not getting the full value of being here folks.

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  14. We can handle jihadists. They can be killed.
    But they will outbreed us in the end.
    The more Muslims there are, the more they demand..
    When they get up to 75%, they start killing off all non-muslims.
    As in Jordan, Lebanon, Egypt, Syria, Turkey, Iraq.
    All once Christian countries.

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  15. Excellent article and comments. I first became interested in these topics in my first year of university in 1960. The main concern then was feeding people but the Green Revolution put that concern on the back burner. It was also the time of Rachel Carson’s Silent Spring and the changing emphasis on the environment. Since then the West has seen mass migration with mixed success at integration. But there is success if my own personal experience is anything to go by. I have just spent 3 weeks in Montreal. I walked over 200 km and observed that groups were usually mixed gender, ethnicity and language and everyone were getting on well. I also took a Metro ride and was surprised that a young black male and a young white female both independently offered me their seats. I declined politely saying next year perhaps. Others see us differently than we see see ourselves it seems; last year I walked 500 km in Spain on one of the Caminos de Santiago. I realize that controlled migration into a nation primarily of migrants cannot be compared to the European experience.

    @ Gemma
    On firmer ground, the NPK in artificial fertilizer stands for Nitrogen, Phosphorous and Potassium. The nitrogen is fixed from atmospheric nitrogen and both the phosphorous and potassium come from mined minerals.

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  16. Why haven’t these alleged jihadists acted yet then? I’ve never understood the logic that – even if they exist in those numbers – that terrorists, returning from a conflict fought largely against other Muslims, would suddenly turn on British civilians.

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  17. Agree with you JW on the planetary overpopulation but the supporting corrupt governments and institutions, tyrants and believing through regime change you can create a democracy from chaos and bypass the tyranny to enforce order while democracy grows.

    Anyway, making a plate for some electronics today and used a straight edge metre rule. Realised for the 40 years of this more or less sovereignty debtate, argument etc. I just ended up with a steel ruler half imperial and half metric. What a joke, ether it is going to be metric and if after 40 years you can’t handle that tough or revert to imperial so I do not have to continually flip a metal plate to be able to use the metric side.

    EU can you please issue an executive order like you do “it will be a criminal offoence to sell imperial rulers of any type in the EU as of the 23rd Juner 2016”. /SARC Might be a start of a new era in measurement and not just tyranny.

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  18. Those of us still opposed to decimalisation ought to have a pint at the Douglas Arms in Bethesda, Snowdonia where the landlord still charges for your pint in pounds shillings and pence. Over the bar is a sign “Fight decimalisation!”

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  19. @ jdseanjd
    “Man’s prosperity has risen historically in direct correlation with population growth.”
    – an unattributed statement whose source you do not provide. … From my own reading, the reality is generally acknowledged to be the exact opposite and relates to all natural species – When existential conditions become more favorable, population numbers increase. Often in Nature this leads to an over-population which ends in a crash when the conditions sustaining those numbers become exhausted. In laboratory conditions involving rats, overcrowding and lack of food also leads to aggression and cannibalism.
    The links and sites you often refer to are strongly anti-abortion/pro-life and the mere idea of population control is anathema to them. Strange they should share the beliefs and practices of the world’s poor .

    If, in your Utopian world, it was possible to provide an ever increasing number of billions with enough food, would they stop reproducing? Would it lead to ubiquitous peace and harmony? The drive for power and use of force to achieve it, has little to do with a full belly – and accessibility “to the stars” as you advocate will not resolve that eternal human failing. Your recipe would most likely encourage those who are today producing the most children (without the ability to feed them) to simply have more, such as the 1.6 billion Muslims, whose religious duty it is to maximise procreation. Is this your solution for the world?

    There is also an alternative way to regard what “Human ingenuity” and indeed, humans have done to the place they call home and some might suggest much of the “progress” you describe needs to be re-evaluated before proceeding further.

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  20. Excellent article JW full of statements of fact. I fail to understand why there are plebs who wish to fill our overcrowded Isle yet further. Have they not a pair of eyes to see with?
    When Blair came to power was when immigration accelerated, & it hasn’t been monitored since then. Alas I’m simply making an obvious statement, nothing more.
    When I visit the Capital I feel an alien there, and I’m suddenly aware that the country I once held dear is mine no longer.
    Throughout history land was taken by the sword, our’s has been given away.

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  21. kfc

    They should be arrested for treason just for saying it. Anyone who still thinks we live in a democracy should to wake up.. cue loud snoring.

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  22. kfc
    ‘because the Leave campaign has refused to spell out what trading relationship it wants the UK to have with the EU in the future’ is what Mish writes.

    My question is : Why have the EU not told us what our trading relationship will be in the event of BREXIT?

    If Parliament goes against the vote – there will be ANARCHY – so bring it on.

    .

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  23. jd, canexpat, alexi and others
    it has always been difficult to predict our future, voices of the past raised concerns 100’s of years ago. You could well argue today that these concerns were irrelevant. It amazes me to look at my parents, now in their 90’s when they came into the world there were @ 2 billion people. So to provoke thought amongst you i would ask you to do a little work and plot human population growth starting from 5000 years ago. On paper at least a meter long (yes metric is good for some things) mark off a horizontal line of one meter. Todays date is at the midway point (50cm), to the left at zero cm, mark 5000 years ago and to the right at 100cm mark 5000 years in the future. So 1 cm equals 100 years. Starting at the far left (5000 years ago) mark on the vertical scale (your choice of units) 5 million, that is approximately the human population at this date. Complete the graph till today (go google population through the ages). It is amazing on this scale to see how rapid our growth has been. On the same graph plot the (large scale) production of hydrocarbons, coal, oil and gas. You may want to first understand hubbard curves and the production of hydrocarbons. It doesnt matter what vertical scale you use as long as it sits on the same piece of paper. Please bear in mind that regardless of opinion or theory this data is reasonably accurate, it is after all what has past behind us. Now sit back and think. What we see is a very long period of slow growth with next to no hydro carbon production followed by rapid growth with rapid expansion of hydrocarbon production. So what comes first? Chicken or egg? If you look to the here and now you will see that hydrocarbon production is faltering but human population growth continues very strongly. What is the future? Some suggest to place a mirror at todays date line.
    On another point , we do not chose to whom we are born or to where we are born. I see little advantage in unending population growth, ultimately i believe we will fail regardless of availability of resources, I think it is just the way we are wired. But in respect to life outside of Earth, there are already life forms orbiting our planet in a space station we have created. My mothers Grandfather was convinced the moon was made of cheese. Do not under estimate what we can achieve, the next generation of energy provision may well be around the corner and our population may double on account of it.

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  24. How is it that anyone can decide to add a new person to this world independently without any penalty for the destruction to the planet or the social and financial costs to everyone else?.
    Really, a license should be made complulsory. But it won’t be.
    What will happen though is this…………

    The current sponsored multi cultural fornicating frenzy will result in a ruthless hybrid peoples who will decree the killing of their elders to conserve global resources

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  25. Excellent post John. England (not UK) is now the most populous or overpopulated country in Europe 419 per km2 as opposed to Holland at 408, Germany 226 and France 105. We have long since passed the point at which we could feed ourselves should the global situation go belly upward. You might be living in one of the more fortunate places as regards food supplies John.

    Gemma I was only little at the time of the Windrush but have seen it played out over and over. I have spent over a half a lifetime in the offshore oil industry – mainly in the North Sea. When I started out most of the more menial and catering jobs were done by local Aberdonian or Scottish lads (no girls back then). When Spain and Portugal were admitted to the EU I saw a rapid shift. Being in a position of responsibility for the welfare of crew I noticed that some of the Portuguese cabin crew had been out for weeks when they should have been sent ashore for r&r. When I tried to remedy this they begged me not to send them ashore as then they would have to pay for food and accommodation. One of these who I became to know quite well told me he had a brother on another rig, between them they had bought a farm back in Portugal (their parents were already living on it) and that in two years they would have it paid off. This at a time when a local Aberdonian lad on the same money could hardly afford a two bedroomed council flat for his family. After the Spanish and Portuguse came the balkan refugees and then the East Europeans in several waves – all to the same effect. On one of the last rigs I worked on we had a superb Nigerian girl who was head electric logger. Needless to say she was paid African rates and was much cheaper to employ than a Brit or European.

    I don’t blame the poor beggars who were passengers on the Windrush or any of the later waves. They were just making the best of their lot and in the case of the Windrush folk it was a pretty tough lot. I blame the politicians who for decades have played the same trick to supress wages for the benefit of the corps and the 1% regardless of the cost to their own folk or social cohesion.

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  26. Waldgaenger
    This is shocking to me being outside oil and gas offshore industry.
    For years we have been led to believe that these oil companies / County Councils were state of the art leaders and shining examples of ‘eu sponsored ‘ health and safety etc, working conditions, blah blah. And the itinerant workers….oh please….so they were on the scrounge even then??….Just another bucket full of tosh to add to this world of incompetent failure..
    BTW a small farm in Portugal can be bought today for £30,000

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  27. The latest lies/international scaremongering:

    1. Janet Yellen, the either deranged or criminally corrupt head honcho of the Federal Reserve, has stated shamelessly that ‘a UK Brexit could affect US interest rates’. I’ve never heard such unadulterated twaddle in my life. Britain is an ant where influence over US economy is concerned and nothing Britain does, short of funding terrorists to cause devastation on the US mainland, will have a significant impact on the US economy. The women is certifiably insane, a shameless liar, or both. She should be sacked forthwith…….

    2. MPs are apparently prepared to defy a Brexit popular vote and ‘campaign to nullify the vote’ in Parliament. One has to say that if they do not accept the verdict of the people, they should not be Representatives of the people. They should resign their seats and, if they refuse to, they should be hunted down and dealt with. They have no place in UK public life if they cannot accept the will of the people. Especially if they turn a blind eye to vote rigging, including issuing large numbers of voting cards to those ineligible to vote, from EU countries, who will undoubtedly vote ‘Remain’ if given the chance to vote.

    One thing people should understand clearly: if you take a decision to break from a strategic membership of an organisation, they will of course be consequences. We don’t need stark warnings from those who choose to invest in the UK to serve the EU market that they may change their minds if the UK pulls out. That’s hardly a surprise, is it? What people should perhaps ask is whether any alternative investments may accrue from altogether different parties as a result of the UK NOT being in the EU. It’s something one hopes the Leavers have been thinking about.

    Equally, the Leavers need to be clear that they cannot keep schtumm about consequences of Brexit in terms of things like workers’ rights. The reason? It’s pretty darn obvious that for many people, if certain rights provided by EU law are revoked, their lives will be much the worse. So for them, it is critical to know what their future may look like if they vote ‘Leave’. Whilst the Referendum is not a General Election, it is a clear choice between two alternatives. You don’t divorce your husband on the advice of someone who turns out to be a paedophile hungry to abuse your children, do you?? Even if your philandering husband is hardly making you happy with the current arrangements. You might, however, divorce him, if you were sufficiently sure that by doing so, your life would be a happier and more fulfilled one as a result. So yes, the Leave campaign do need to make clear that they will not turn UK into a sweatshop with workers rights on a par with Indonesia, Bangladesh and Qatar. Because if they won’t, then they are not worthy of trust, are they?

    Both sides are spoilt children screaming at the Media Editors for attention.

    Oh but any of them had the interests of the bottom 40% of UK passport holders in mind……

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  28. @Waldgaenger

    I kind of did the same in Saudi in the 1990s. Although the Golden Egg laying days were over there I managed to pay off the mortgage on a tiny Welsh cottage whilst there. In addition, I employed a houseboy from Bangladesh as a cleaner who saved every penny/Saudi riyal I gave him and bought a farm in Bangladesh. Two for the price of one.

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  29. Waldgaenger

    “I blame the politicians who for decades have played the same trick to supress wages for the benefit of the corps and the 1% regardless of the cost to their own folk or social cohesion.”

    You will have to blame the British politicians here, and the society that bred them.

    Europeans tend to think of their own countryfolk first, tend to invest in their own country. The British invest where they can make the most money, wherever that is, and it shows in the British housing and infrastructure.

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  30. Actually I had my fingers crossed when I said that.
    I am British myself, with a strong heritage dating back to feudal days when we owned a large tract of land and employed many humble servants. I only live in Germany because the estate was lost during the war of the roses between the houses of Lancaster and York. Richard the 3rd was only defeated when one of my great great great aunts presented him with a bunch of yellow roses which put him off his battle plan at a vital moment. Our estate was confiscated by the politicians, so we fled to Germany where we were presented with lots of gifts and privileges because one of my great great great grandfathers was a very good plumber. Consequently I still live in the apartment that we have owned rent free for the past 400 + years.
    We do love to listen to radio 4 and criticise the English and the Americans because we are still on their government naughty list.

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  31. Oh, dear , here we go again!

    TROLL ALARM!!

    Can anybody who knows this man buy him some allsorts? Toffees? Chocolates are a girl thing, and boys would rather something boyish.

    What is obvious is that he didn’t get the attention from his parents that he needed as a child – and he’s trying to play the part of his mummy but has problems with the skirts as he needs his braces to hold them up. What amazes me is how mannish he sounds when trying to impersonate a woman, he’s like the archetypal trannie with a moustache!

    https://gemmasponderings.wordpress.com/2013/08/09/why-trannies-wear-heels/

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  32. Oh it will be no picnic if Britain takes its country back, but at least we know who to hate our own Govt not faceless Eurocrats. There might even be a decent punk rock revival! Bring on the Billy Elliot Clash London Calling clip!

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  33. @Jeremy Stocks

    It is not the point of decimilisation or not it is to be consistent either all metric all imperial. That is where the politicians are holding us. Me I actually prefer decimal for a reason and nothing to do with economics, standard SI unitis in any science are decimal not imperial.

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  34. Gemma

    Yes, Waldgaenger is describing Britain, and by extension British politicians, no points for stating the bleeding obvious I’m afraid.. ;) These problems are hardly unique to Britain, however.

    PS Have you ever wondered why you get trolled? Hint: it just might have something to do with the way you ram your arguments down people’s throats. If you maintained a slightly healthier regard for social expectations, you might find the problem goes away.

    Liked by 1 person

  35. Hiero

    If you maintained a slightly healthier regard for social expectations, you might find the problem goes away.

    I know, act like a humile female in the face of arguments rammed down my throat by the male population…

    … it is one rule for the women, obviously. One that men don’t have to adhere to, becuase, well, they’re men and they can express their casual sexism as and when they please.

    As to “These problems are hardly unique to Britain, however”That is true, however it only applies to places where corruption is endemic… understand that some countries don’t do corruption in quite the same exhaustive manner that the British do, and you will see why TTIP is needed.

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  36. Gemma

    If you think my comment has anything whatsoever to do with gender, you are very much mistaken.

    TTIP?? No, I’m not going there..

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  37. Gemma – you are awful….but I like you.

    I like what you say sometimes but please be aware that playing the fem card is now so 1997 New Labour.

    Over in Guardianland all men are like Bernard Manning still and come home from the pub and slap their wives after a hard night’s football. Times have radically changed since the less enlightened 1970s. Hell there was even such a thing as a “metrosexual” what the hell that ever was I dunno.

    Once everyone figured out what Cultural Marxism and Hegelian Dialectic were, the cat – incl the “I’m a female/black/gay victim of…” was out of the bag.

    Liked by 1 person

  38. I know, but the stuffy male atmosphere is more like a Victorian club inhabited by crabby misogynists.

    All of whom imagine themselves as being the decent, upstanding democratic sort of person, who respect their wives.

    Who would tell a very different story if they found themselves with their bottoms grabbed by all and sundry when down the pub with their hubbie. Perhaps that kind of man is a metrosexual? The one who says he respects his wife, leaving her bemused at his saying so in public to her female friends who know the truth.

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  39. Hiero “If you think my comment has anything whatsoever to do with gender, you are very much mistaken.”

    Perhaps you aren’t even conscious of the casual sexism?

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  40. Gemma

    Beauty, among other things, is very often in the eye of the beholder. Let’s keep it casual, over and out ;) x

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  41. Gems – if there is any kind of “stuffy male atmosphere” what’s actually wrong with that? Bring it on.

    Perhaps you are one of those who like Chris Evans “Top Gear”! after all it has a German woman presenter on it.

    Like

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