GREECE SPECIAL: The dark night of Golden Dawn.

The Anglo-Saxon centre will ignore Greece’s Golden Dawn at its peril

Here in our relatively peaceful pre-Tsunami backwater of the United Kingdom, we are used to hype from the Social Democrat Left (and its harder fellow-travellers) about the existence of ‘Nazis’. Peter Hain built a career on finding Nazis under every bed including those containing  geraniums; but in truth, old Big Feet wouldn’t know a proper Nazi if it yelled Sieg Heil in his ear’ole from an inch away.

Despite this, Hain and his earnest fellow Stalinism dupes created Anti-Nazi nurseries, Leagues, Fronts and every other form of meaningless collective noun…despite the near total non-existence of genuine goose-steppers.

What I say to them now, however, is this: “If you want to meet some dangerous, powerful, well-connected and knuckle-headed Nazis, then go to Athens. There, you will encounter Chrysi Avgi – the self-styled, bizarrely Wagnerian Party name that translates into English as Golden Dawn. These are not nice people: do you have the stomach for a real fight?”

Most folks capable of reading beyond the Sunday Sport without moving their lips will have heard of Golden Dawn. They will have seen and heard it talked about as a bunch of oddball Greek nationalists who want the EU and any associated immigrants to bugger off….indeed, on those bases they might approve of it. At worst, most people probably think of Chrysi Avgi as an eccentricity that will quickly fade away “when things return to normal”.

They couldn’t be more wrong. Chyrsi Avgi is not a throwback: it may even be a vision of the future, but that depends on what happens politically and economically over the next three years. For the reality is that Golden Dawn is, as of a week ago, officially the third most popular Party in Greece.

One serious source writes to me as follows:

‘What keeps them from growing faster is the fact they still behave like juvenile gangsters. In my area they collect the town’s fools for now, but a lot of elderly people show support and would do even more so if they would show a more mature ‘face’. Given the state the rest of the political establishment is in, and the fact Police is blatantly in favour of them, my guess is, especially in troubled parts of the country, we will see voting success that will bring national embarrassment for the years to come.’

Juvenile gangsters can, in my experience, be just as dangerous as mature ones – and a lot more violent. And Stürm-Abteilung style violence is something they do very well. Worse still – just like the Munich and Berlin constabulary in the late 1920s – the Greek police stand by and watch much of the time. Their ranks are, after all, heavily infiltrated by Chrysi Avgites.

One unfortunate person who suffered intimidation at their hands describes the scene in an Athenian police headquarters one evening recently:

“When I arrived at the Xxxxxxx police station, I was directed to the 3rd floor, where the duty officer was clearly Chrysi Avgi (the obligatory haircut, black T shirt). Entering the room with my mobile in my hand – trying to contact my lawyer – he rose in anger from his chair and demanded that I shut off my phone. Shouting, pointing, he told me I had no right to call a lawyer, no right to use my phone, no right to leave the room and no right to leave the station. He ordered me to sit in a chair – “Sit! Sit! SIT!” – and to not speak, that he would be arresting me and putting me in jail that night…..I had no desire to wait at the station. This was when the attack happened. On a completely empty street three motorcycles with engines switched off came to a halt beside me. Five Chrysi Avgites suddenly surrounded me and pushed me against the wall, demanding my ID. I said I had no obligation to show them my ID. They grabbed my bag, which I clung to, and in the tussle following I fell to the ground and was kept down by their feet….”

It goes without saying that the person concerned was attending the police HQ to deal with a trumped-up charge….almost certainly derived from a known antipathy towards Golden Dawn: “This [the attack] was to teach me a lesson for standing up to the Duty Officer the night before. In other words, the five were off-duty CA police officers.”

But we are not talking infamous SWP activist Svetlana McSovyet here. Other equally normal Slog sources have similar stories. “John, Please write something about the scary re-emergence of fascism in Greece” pleads one, appending several MSM headlines from inside Greece. The worst of these (from the respected Greek Reporter) registers the disturbing rumour that Golden Dawners now have access to files within the Interior Ministry:

‘Greece’s Interior Ministry has denied that a list it compiled of the nationalities of nursery school children was designed to provide information to the neo-Nazi Golden Dawn party which wants all immigrant children expelled from the schools. The ministry said that ethnicity is not a criterion for admission to the schools, and reported that 96 percent of the children are Greek, two percent come from other countries within the European Union and two percent from countries outside the bloc…’

Sounds like a non-story: except on further investigation, I was able to satisfy myself that Golden Dawn did indeed have the list….and had started targeting schools with high immigrant percentages. There has already been a significant rise in incidents of violence against immigrants in Greece over the last six months. In turning down a Golden Dawn request for more detail about immigrant kids recently, The Municipality of Ierapetra, Crete, bravely declared that “we will not hand over data about infants to neo-Nazis who openly threaten them.”

Faced with that refusal, Chrysi Avgi pr men told the media that they “never beat minors”, but for most Greeks such protestations of innocence lack credibility.

For me, these incidents and their limp denial are redolent of the intimidatory tactics of Hitler’s SA throughout Weimar Germany. The original Nazis too enjoyed the protection of the judiciary, the police, and large elements within the armed forces. And they too behaved like yobs in the Reichstag, or psycho paedophiles outside Jewish schools. Since  Golden Dawn’s inception at the start of November 1993 in fact, the Party’s rank and file have revelled in their thuggish reputation: it is – in both senses – a profession of violence that terrifies all those who would ordinarily resist.

Last Friday evening, in an immigrant-filled neighbourhood of Athens, Ilias Panagiotaros, a Golden Dawn MP, used a megaphone to exhort an angry crowd to “fight against foreign invaders”. “We’re going to spill your blood, you Albanian pigs,” a man in the flag-waving throng screamed.

Is this just the legendary ‘tiny minority’ we so often hear about when the political class wishes to deny the reality of a backlash against their inept corruption? Hardly: a survey this month by pollster Public Issue found 21% of Greeks say they have “a favourable opinion” of the Party.

Just as in 1920s Berlin – where it tended to be the equally fascist pro-Moscow Stalinists facing down Hitler – so too at the moment the Centre or Social Democrat European parties turn up their noses while the forces of Might on the Right grow at a frightening rate. Says another valued Athenian source:

“Historically fascist groups gained power not through support at the bottom but secret support at the top. For example, Mussolini had the secret support of Italian capitalists. In Greece, the source of support points to the government. Certainly New Democracy has let Golden Dawn set the agenda on illegal immigration. Just two days ago I was told by a good source that the government is trying hard too late to control the monster they created. I am sceptical.”

As for the ‘respectable’ fascists in Berlin-am-Brussels, they continue to display no interest at all in the vermin heading upstairs from the cellar: all they care about is the bill being paid in the dining room.

There is something almost obscenely insouciant about those EU apparatchiks and their political creatures who have teased and then finally tormented the Greek people. Along the way they have managed to alienate the international bond dealers, frustrate the stock markets, anger the great majority of Europeans, empty the Central Bank’s vaults, and compromise the Single Currency…..purely by preferring the mad insistence of banking interests on impossible repayment to the obvious solution: default followed by debt forgiveness.

In that sense, Greece has been used as test-market for neocon austerity – in much the same way Spain was used as a test-bed for weaponry and bombing strategies after 1935. The irony of German intransigence rebuilding Greek fascism today in the exact same way that Anglo-French intransigence created German Nazism over eighty years is as tragic as it is obvious.

So my message tonight is simple: as Mark Twain said, “History doesn’t repeat itself, but it does rhyme rather well”. The mistake in the light of this wisdom is to imagine that pretending rhymes are not evidence of connection.

Or put another way, “For God’s sake MSM, wake up”.






89 thoughts on “GREECE SPECIAL: The dark night of Golden Dawn.

  1. “A lot of elderly people show support”……This is what happens when law & order breaks down & the police can no longer be relied on to patrol the streets. People usually look then for the Russell Crowes’ of this world rather than the Nick Cleggs’.
    I did read that they were the only people handing out food on the streets……


  2. Don’t disagree with what you say John.
    I don’t want fascism [true not verbal] any more than I want what we have or even the communist version of freedom.

    Perhaps this is the apothecary special cures section?
    To cure syphilis they used to give malaria.
    Or to get rid of malaria you have to get sickle cell anaemia.

    All of this shit arises because the idiots on the bridge of the SS Britannic [does sort of rhyme with Titanic doesn’t it? Mark Twain was literally and metaphorically correct] have failed to deal with the problem looming before them. They have seen the iceberg and have had endless discussions about the best way to avoid it or even embrace it -for diversity’s sake, They have created an immigrant problem anyway but not being content with different coloured immigrants they’re now diluting the mix with a million ‘whiteys’ who cannot be anything but true caucasians given their origin. Perhaps they think by adding lots of white paint they’ll tone down the brown bits?

    They are all nuts. Back to the sword sharpener and I must try out those design specs for the halberd…………ready for our return to the bronze age.


  3. As someone whose life and property has been threatened by Chrysi Avgi through a now-defunct (for PR reasons) forum affiliated with it and run by a notorious member of the nazi group, I’m going to give you some harsh facts here.

    The physical and ideological ancestors of Golden Dawn are the members of the “Security Battalions”, collaborationist troops created by the quisling government of Greece during the Axis Occupation. The left (basically EAM-ELAS) fought them and their Nazi bosses. Georgios Papadopoulos, who would later proceed to become a CIA agent and a dictator, was an officer of the Security Battalions (in every lawbook that constitutes high treason, punishable with death – however, this guy is considered by far too many Greeks, especially in the Right Wing, a great patriot).

    When the Germans left Greece, our “Allies” (most notably, the UK and the USA) chose to turn to the Security Battalions to form the new military, the new police and the core of the “liberated” Greece and become the forces around the restored government (a king from a pro-German dynasty and a bunch of corrupt politicians who were extremely battle-shy) and start persecuting the partisans, in an “anti-communist” frenzy.

    Many MPs of New “Democracy” still pay tribute to Security Battalion members who were executed in Meligalas. Until the fall of the dictatorship, all governments paid tribute to these traitors. The Nazis, of course, still do.

    The Nazi group is part of Greece’s para-state. It’s part of the secret services. Most police officers (over 50% of them) are members of it. And many judges have been favoring it. Nikolaos Michaloliakos, a special forces cadet, was dishonourably discharged and imprisoned for stealing weapons from the army and using them in terrorist attacks.

    Recently, a bomb exploded in the hand of someone in Sparta. The guy (who succumbed to his wounds), along with someone else, had 60 bombs (!!!!) in their apartment. Both were Golden Dawn members. Both were released without bail or charges. Guess why?

    Greece was never liberated from Nazism and everyone (including its “allies”) is guilty.


  4. IMHO the MSM is fully awake and aware but, straightjacketed by vested interest. I am loathe to say it but, if Golden Dawn redressed the balance, i.e. put a stop to the mad Berliners I am all for it, good luck to them for I truly hate the scumbags that are making the ordinary lives of the Greek people truly untenable because they think that’s ok. Greece has always managed it’s own affairs, it was only when the mad Brussel sprouts got involved that fantasy became reality and now fantasy has become reality.


  5. There is a difference between the sympton(eg. the rise of the Nazi party,Golden Dawn),and the cause (eg.the Treaty of Versailles,the mismanagement of the end of European’boom’).A market solution should arrive before Christmas :more bank insolvencies in Europe,a steep sell off in property(as a rush to liquid assets accelerates),a consequent collapse in insurance company shares,volatility in equity prices,a couple of military coups,,perhaps, and then the beginning of a long overdue bull market in equities,caused by a collapse in the oil price.


  6. ” Greece has been used as test-market for neocon austerity”

    I would dispute the neocon bit. The usual IMF modus operandi is to impose cuts yes, but also to devalue the currency at the same time. That is precisely what the Eurocrats do NOT want, and I don’t think they qualify as neocons.

    If Greece had had a typical IMF intervention several years ago (spending cuts + currency devaluation) it would be in a better position right now. Its the social democrats in Brussels that are screwing them into the ground not any neocons, because the survival of the euro trumps any damage caused to the Greek people.


  7. Robin Banks.
    The Liberal Democrat Party in Russia is not unlike Golden Dawn. Neither should we forget that, for many years, the Austrian Freedom Party was accepted by the British Liberal party and its European colleagues as part of the “Liberal International” ! Lloyd George was a big admirer of Hitler and wished Britain had such a leader. In 1932 H G Wells addressed the British Young Liberals and recommended them to form their own fascist movement because Fabian socialism was too nice and too gradual. I highly recommend Jonah Goldberg’s book “Liberal Fascism” for some surprising parallels between today’s left and yesterday’s right. Goldberg uses the word liberal in its American sense to mean, more or less, left wing/socialist.

    Unrestricted immigration is a deliberate policy of the EU to break up cohesive nations. Peter Sutherland, ex EU Commissioner, ex head of the WTO, Goldman Sachs millionaire, Bilderberger etc etc, gave evidence to the House of Lords in the summer calling for a great deal more of it to stop nations from being homogenous. Cheap immigrant labour and the creation of immigrant “communities” which can be played off against each other make it easier for governments to divide and rule. I read in today’s paper that, in Britain today, 25% of births are now to immigrant mothers. So they really mean it. Even the Miliband has sort of apologised for Labour’s policy of letting Third World immigration rip. It was their deliberate intent to cause irreversible demographic change with electoral benefits for Labour. Mr Cameron has not reversed it. So he too is content, in effect, for the government to “elect a new people”.

    In the face of this deliberate policy and the suppression of its criticism as “racism”, it is not surprising that some very nasty responses emerge. It used to be a function of government to protect their people from invasion – not any more.


  8. You should not be all for it kfc1404,the people behind them will lead us to www3,you normally have a sensable point to make kfc ,it is what john does not put into his article that intrigue’s


  9. @ES: If what you say is true, and I have no reason to doubt that it is then, we are faced with only one way to stop this, violent and bloody revolution. I have said for a while now that the streets will become the rivers of blood, the shame of it will be that we will be fighting each other and we are not each others enemy. The Scumbags in Government are the ones responsible.


  10. Many here talk about kicking the can down the road and that it can only be kicked so far. The problem is that what many have failed to realise is that, they have found ways of making more road so, the can conveniently never reaches the end of the road, hence keep on kicking. Maybe OMT stands for:
    Oh, Macadam, Thank you……


  11. @ES: Well articulated and on the money. We desperately need to confront and overturn the deliberately perverse and manipulative suppression of criticism described in your last paragraph which applies also, of course, in other areas. The perils of sleepwalking are not a dream.


  12. It won’t be long before the Greek Church goes (openly) to bed with Golden Dawn.That will definitively give access to the masses. Just wait for the Troika-State to ask the Church to pay more taxes or even donate it’s vast real estate. A very flammable mix of politics,money and religion.


  13. No, ‘the Scumbags in Government are [not] the ones responsible’. WE ARE. We allowed them to buy our votes, so what do you expect ? We will reap what we ourselves have sown. I fear it will be a very bitter harvest.


  14. KFC

    A little late for the party … but let’s unravel one thing you said: “Greece has always managed it’s own affairs” – – – pardon?

    Just how has it managed its own affairs? By not taxing their citizens and borrowing money at cheap rates for decades.

    Tell me how they can continue to do this? Somehow my thoughts are that if the Greek citizen won’t fund its government, why should Berlin trust them any more? That they put demands on the money they lend is only common sense.


  15. Andy

    I happen to think you are right. Whatever Greece does (after all, this is the topic here) it will be bitter. Inside the EU it must abide by (or openly flout) the austerity agreement, or face the shark infested waters of a new drachma.


  16. Gemma,
    We seldom agree ! However I know Greece very well and I am deeply sadden and distressed by what I have seen and what I see happening to my many Greek friends.

    But I’m sorry to say that one thing I have observed – as I do here in the UK – is a tendency to blame all and sundry for what has gone wrong instead of themselves. On the various islands I know well and love, there is the tendency to deny the blatant corruption, while secretly wanting to have a ladle in the sauce boat too. But of course that is different. Nationally I was always dismayed at how Andreas Papandreou was regarded as almost a saint. I thought, with the disadvantage of having known him, he was nothing more than a liar and a common thief. Some of the others were little better.

    I am not surprised by Golden Dawn, nor by Syriza which to me is the great threat to democracy. But they are merely two sides of the same coin. Maybe the Greeks should all be made to watch Ian Kershaw’s ‘The Nazis: a warning from History’.


  17. @Andy and Gemma: +1 to both.
    Andy, you are so right about “WE ARE (all responsible)”. Keep in mind though that the Greek politicos have been the maestros in this “concert”.
    Especially Andreas Papandreou.
    Not everybody is putting the blame in others. “Other voices” are present in this blog – and we are not that many the Greek Sloggers. I think that means something…
    Can you read Greek? If so, this blog is an honest local voice example:
    Wish i had time to translate this guy :-(


  18. No, Mo. The Orthodox church organised ‘Church in the Streets’ 3 years ago to feed illegal immigrants – it gives out 2000 cooked meals a day, each with a litre of water. Yet Archbishop Ieronomos has not spoken out against Chrysi Avgi. The City of Athens has a separate program with 2000 meals also. There are many other charity programs and also private initiatives. My favorite picks up all the unsold food from bakeries etc at the end of the day and distributes it. Meanwhile each church provides a cooked lunch every day for needy people in the parish – this has always been so, and precedes the crisis.

    The Chrysi Avgi were johnny come latelys and they haven’t provided meals. They had a well-publicised day in Syntagma in early summer handing out bags of potatos & veg to greeks with ID cards. Their real point was the greek ID.


  19. Thank you John for getting this across so powerfully.
    Also many thanks to Airetikos for the historical background.

    I add this, from the letters column of Kathimerini –

    Chrysi Avgi’s ‘rule by brute force’ is a logical result – the other side of the coin –  of the Imperial-style ‘rule by decree’ of the 3 last successive governments spanning the crisis. Two of these governments have been democratically elected – but any democratic accountability ceased thereafter. The sudden and unexplained catapulting of Greece into the arms of the Troika, the eternally opaque negotiations with the Troika, the scandalously self-preservatory choices made by all 3 governments at the cost of relentless impoverishment of the country (while ignoring the Troika’s structural demands)…

    For those who have lived outside Greece the most striking phenomenon of the last 3 years has been the complete lack of information coming from parliament: lack of transparency, lack of presentation of options – yes, Greece has options and still does – external & internal propaganda and disinformation. Made worse by a cowardly (or just bought?) press which has refused its responsibility to force information into the open. For example, Kathimerini constantly refers to  ‘special interests’ but never names them. 

    Greeks have been led into this crisis more or less in the dark and remain more or less in the dark. And out of the dark steps Chrysi Avgi, a former lunatic fringe organisation. 

    Its grass root supporters are those who feel most powerless, are least educated and have the fewest options open to them. CA sells itself to children as young as 10 and 11 as a cross between Robin Hood and ‘True Patriot’. CA doesn’t wait for permission, it acts. From food drives for Greeks Only to storming through streets beating and stabbing foreigners – regardless of Taftotitas and including EU citizens.

    Historically, it is worth noting that no fascist organisation has risen as far as Chrysi Avgi has today without powerful sponsors or tacit complicity from above. Greece has always had the option, as a democratic country – and as other EU countries have done – to simply outlaw fascism. In the case of Chrysi Avgi, where would powerful support (or complicity) be coming from? 

    ND  has already let CA set the agenda on illegal immigration, and declared itself the party of the police, army and the Orthodox church. Both army and police are strongly CA, and Archbishop Ieronomos has not yet pronounced against CA. Meanwhile, though the country desperately wants new parties and new politicians, parliament is packed with the same old faces, with ND and especially PASOK battling for their political existence. Their main threat comes from SYRIZA.

    With Samaras newly welcomed into the club of EU ‘statesman’ by Angela Merkel, I suspect that CA has become part of ND’s vote calculation against SYRIZA in possible early elections.  It could be that self-preservation obsessed, dirt splattered politicians do not worry about opening Pandora’s box. 


  20. “A lot of elderly people show support” @Mo
    my elderly aunt who lives in down town Athens tells me this : as they are too scared to go to the bank and pick up their pensions because are followed and targeted by thieves ( mostly illegal migrants ), Golden Dawn has now a ‘hotline’ , you call and they send a thug to escort you to the bank and safely back home .What about that?


  21. Thank you JW for this post. It’s generated a powerful thread. If we are truly now getting a glimpse beyond the smoke and mirrors, the future for all of us indeed looks bleak. The fracture lines develop and populations capitulate like gadarene swine. Job done.

    For me the question is whether we have already gone beyond the point at which we can do anything to escape our fate. Greece seems caught in a pincer movement between outright fascists and neo-capitalist fascists- no difference there then, nor probably in their financial sponsors ultimately. If we are not to conform with The Plan, then whatever is thrown at us- either in the UK or the rest of the EU- it is absolutely crucial that society does not turn upon itself.

    Whether we shall ever have the opportunity to seize the day to survive this mess brought to mind this quote from “Julius Caesar”:

    We at the height are ready to decline.
    There is a tide in the affairs of men
    Which, taken at the flood, leads on to fortune;
    Omitted, all the voyage of their life
    Is bound in shallows and in miseries.
    On such a full sea are we now afloat,
    And we must take the current when it serves,
    Or lose our ventures. (IV.ii.269–276)

    Otoh, given the levels of financial and moral corruption being daily exposed one wonders if indeed our only salvation is armageddon….As @KFC1404 says, they keep making more road to kick the can…..but the mathematics indicates otherwise.


  22. Greece has destroyed it’s self from within .It took long but we made a perfect job.Now if the undertakers from Brussels are giving us a proper burial or if the coffin is mahogany or chipboard or if the music to go with it is Wagner or Shostakovich does it really matter?
    The country that gave the world the most noble ideas and propositions of civilization now lies at ground zero , like the Ottoman empire in the 20s and 30s .Recently i think a lot about Kemal Ataturk .Is particularly painful for greeks to think about him but i wish there was someone to take us out of this decadent dark age .


  23. Pingback: John Ward – Greece Special : The Dark Night Of Golden Dawn – 18 October 2012 | Lucas 2012 Infos

  24. Neocon austerity did not create Golden Dawn. Mass Third World immigration did. The austerity is just the trigger for the underlying resentment of Greeks (and Europeans everywhere) at the mainstream politicans’ insane policy of deliberately importing groups that are disproportionately welfare-dependant and prone to violent crime, are often members of a violent religious cult that despises the kuffar, and are racist against the host people. The whole mess has only held together so far because of prosperity, and the fact that mass immigration only significantly impacted poor areas. Now the prosperity is gone and people are competing for scarce resources, things will go tribal pretty quick.


  25. Worse again though, would be the Greeks being colonised by Africans and Arabs, and ending up a despised minority in their own homeland. Greece (and the rest of the West) is now in the territory of “least worst options”.


  26. Labels such as Facist, Nazi, Nationalist, National Socialist, Neo-Con, Marxist and so on are not helpful in identifying problems never mind identifying solutions. They are more often a distraction.

    The result of any extreme is destructive and divisive and entirely predictable and in fact predicted by many. So inevitable are they that it isn’t possible that governments within and the EU itself are not aware that extremes will result from their policies.

    An extreme can only ever be overcome by another extreme and not by people voting or sitting around discussing.

    As to the continued fashion for claiming it is our fault for voting the wrong people in, I don’t agree. No government in my lifetime has been elected with the assistance of my vote ( I prefer to vote for the person than the party ) and if the person I had voted for had ended up in government I don’t believe results would have been better, just different. And voting for ‘none of the above’ hasn’t made anything better either.

    What does this all mean? It means what is coming is inevitable, it won’t be voted for by anyone but it is the future, extremism. The longer it builds before bursting the worse it will be and yes, it will have been the fault of TPTB.

    Solutions? None, it all has to happen, a metaphorical destruction then maybe an actual rebuild.


  27. I find the popularity of Golden Dawn and other facist groups very scary. I was drawn to the BNP because of the disgusting way Nick Griffin was treated on Questionable Time. I wrote to the BNP about the secret family courts, and was upset that they did not seem bothered about the paedophile network the False Memory Syndrome Foundation influencing the secret family courts. I was also sucked in to the UK Column, and came to realise that they are not the anti child abuse and benevolent group that they pretend to be either.
    Its like there is a deliberate breaking down of law and order in all the countries, an undermining of every institution. I have had a run in with Stafford Police over their cover up of the Pindown child abuse, but I have felt unable to make a formal complaint until now as the police complaints proceedure is so structured that you have to make a complaint about the ones who have been briefed wrongly by their superiors, and they may not necessarily have been acting maliciously. I wouldn’t want to cause someone who was acting on a wrong brief to be punished or lose their job, I realise that the Pindown cover up is bigger than just Stafford Police. If the police get undermined, and the courts get undermined, and law and order gets broken down, then groups like the Golden Dawn can muscle in and take over, and that is a very frightening prospect. Sorry if this post is a bit hard to understand, but I am struggling with depression.


  28. “When they came they take the Jews, I did not protested, because I was not a Jew.

    When they came for the communists I did not shout, because I was not a communist.

    When they hounded the gypsies, again I did not shout , because I was not a gipsy.

    When they closed the mouths of Roman Catholics that they were opposed to the fascism, I did nothing because I was not a Catholic.

    Then they came to arrest me, but no one was there anymore to resist with me. ”

    At the end we will all, (not only Hellenes ), pay the price and I hope that it will be not “bloody”


  29. Greece has been “managing its own affairs” by NOT taxing the ridiculously rich people that fund its MP’s campaigns and taxing the hell out of everyone else, while raiding the social security funds’ coffers (even the coffers of private insurance funds like that of the engineers!) everytime it ran out of money.


  30. What happens to people who dislike mass immigration ,who dislikes multicultural hell holes that has been in forced on them, who have to compete with immigrants every day to feed there family.who watches possative discrimination choose a immigrant over himself or family member. A concession of governments who have set out to replace them and the violence that goes with it, who speaks for them if not the nationalists


  31. Ο Αιρετικός

    I would agree with you if – and only if – Greece had a sensible taxation system since the 1950s. It has not. The problem you have now is that you need to catch up and pay for your past mistakes. That is never easy.

    Remember that your shipping barons are buying up German vessels because their shipowners have to pay taxes. From my point of view, it is not unreasonable to expect Greeks of every size, description and income to pay fair taxes.


  32. Gemma.
    Before the EU Greece managed it’s own affairs. However badly they managed them is irrelevant, they were still the architects of their own destiny. And you are right, Berlin shouldn’t trust Athens, in fact Berlin shouldn’t have anything to do with Athens at all but, the thought of all those juicy natural resources under the Greek oceans falling into America’s dirty hands is proving a little difficult for them. So, we are back to the Fear and Greed motivators, at which point in the eyes of Brussels-am-Berlin the people of Greece are unimportant, and that is admirably demonstrated by the truly awful state the Greek people find themselves in.


  33. ‘At the end we will all, (not only Hellenes ), pay the price and I hope that it will be not “bloody”’

    I fear, upon my soul I fear, that the price will be heavy in blood. The foundations for a bloody European War are being laid by our idiotic Political Class. The tragedy is that all this was foretold.


  34. KFC

    I disagree strongly.

    Firstly, Greece has not “managed its affairs” – it has MISMANAGED its affairs for three generations and more. They have whiled away the time and just like the US congress, have avoided every possible moment to actually do something. They have to face the music, and they have to face it now. That is what Berlin is trying to help them with: a proper administration for a start.

    Can you imagine what the foreign oil concerns are going to say to the Greek government??? “Oh, look what you did for the shipowners!”

    Remember that Starbucks paid 35p in taxes in the UK … they couldn’t get away with that in Germany.

    Whatever Germany does in Greece, it will have at least tried to set up a proper taxation system so that anyone coming along and exploiting their wealth has to pay their fair dues to Greece!!!. Can you imagine the Americans even thinking about setting up something like that???

    The answer is “no”. At least the Germans are trying to do SOMETHING. Nobody else is. It is not going to be nice for the Greeks, it will be better than the alternative.


  35. @Andy
    Not entirely are we the voters responsible. The political class has used its position to ensure that whoever we vote for we get more of the same. A lot of people I would agree tend to vote for those who would buy their vote but within the ‘politosphere’ we have the MSM (especially the BEEB) which has been complicit in telling everyone not just who to vote for but that if you vote for anyone else it is ‘a wasted vote’. No vote is EVER wasted even if you do not get those for whom you voted as your representative.

    The idea of voting is almost painted as ‘having to be on the winning side’ and being on the losing side makes you a loser. This is deliberate political gerrymandering and the people who should be putting a stop to it….the politicians are actively in collusion.

    I point to the MSM clearly allowing Mr Cameron when asked about UKIP to be allowed to get away without challenge (or to explain his opinion) as ‘a joke’. Being as how they are a major threat you would have thought this point would have been taken up when uttered, but it was just left hanging. On the other hand if Cameron was an honest and democratic enthusiast, instead of writing them off as a joke, he should have just said ‘they have opinions different to mine, if you support those opinions vote for them.’

    I know this last point is a non starter from todays political class but it is the way that things should work in order that everybody voting gets a fair shout over the ‘value’ of their vote to a democratic nation.

    But over all, when the option is quite literally painted through all communications channels as either red or blue (but the same intents) then the people who are being asked to vote are not getting the information required. the purpose of the media is to inform. That the people are not informed by the channels of communication which have been opened to them is the fault, not those who rely on those channels for a fair hearing.

    I blame not the voters but those who (usually mis) ‘inform’ the voters.


  36. I suspect that we will see a lot more extreme politics of both colours and creeds over the inevitable run up to the next EU treaty in which Individual National Sovereignty must inherently be signed away for the lifetime of the people of those countries that participate. Which gets there first, the Treaty or the Ballot Boxes to kill the EU Project will IMHO be the real Elephant in the Room for Europe in 2013.

    The ever more angry attempts to stop the EU Empire will likely result in perfectly normal and rational citizens of both Northern and Southern Europe voting for outlandish parties, or burning down Parliaments. Geli and the Sprouts really should be much more careful that the two counties with a ‘previous’ history of Post WW2 Fascist Dictatorships are Greece and Spain. Since this form of government is not allowed in the EU………there seems to me to be a real risk of a sudden catastrophic break up if these peoples, (or their Police and Military) are pushed too far for too long.

    I do wonder if much of Greece’s immigration problems would disappear if it left (or was forced out of) the EU? After all, the reason that these people travel through other more culturally akin counties such as Turkey is to make specifically for an EU country in the hope of somehow acquiring EU papers and work permits, either to be sending money home or bringing in their families. If Greece leaves the EU any time in the next year or two, there will be no point in these immigrants staying there, and surely any who are able to move on, will do so…….. Bulgaria Beware …!


  37. Andy

    be thankful that Germany has an army significantly smaller than Britain’s.

    Your idiotic political class is doing what all good businesses do: look for the evidence first, and then react to it. In business terms it is checking the bottom line to see if there is a profit, not looking at the business that generates it. The problem with their approach is that someone somewhere is doing something only you don’t know it until they have left a trail of evidence.

    It is a great deal harder to work out who they are and what they are doing before they make the evidence. It is what marks out the elite marketers from the also-rans: it uses a way of thinking that is extremely difficult to grasp. (If you visit my website there are now four parts to my “escape manual” – only I am setting up two new campaigns and the make-over will have to wait, sorry).


  38. Unfortunately the problem will not disappear. The immigrants want to come to the rich West Europe…EU or not.
    On the other hand, this will give Greece a chance to handle the situation in the best local interest – Dublin accords don’t work for Greece – they have been made to suit West European countries.


  39. I think that adding the ‘extreme’ label to any side in the ‘argument’ is a distraction. It does not take much of a step to either right of left of reasonableness for grudges to build from those who just want reasonable to be the way forward. Ideologies tend to take at least a large step away from the reasonable to embrace those who want just a little bit more for themselves and their ‘type of people’. Reasonable means doing what the people of the nation want in the majority to ensure the contentment of those very same people. It even means doing nothing if there is nothing needing doing.

    Take the step to the left. They always want ‘a little bit more’ from those people who have taken their responsability to themselves and their family seriously enough to provide what they need as far as possible.
    Those of the Right believe that they have taken responsability for themselves etc. and that those who have not should not be asking for anything from them.

    Reasonable people realise that in order that social balance is achived they must make ‘some’ contribution for those unable (for whatever genuine reason) to do it all for themselves. Likewise a reasonable contribution should be made in order that mutually beneficial communal attributes be funded communally.

    The ‘Reasonable party’ would gain a landslide victory at any election but this option is never clearly available because of the ‘party brand’ game being played………..which ONLY assists those who have climbed the ‘party brand’ ladder. The voter only works out who gets the bigger paychecks for 5 years).


  40. In the last several years throughout Europe (or at least the EU) most countries policians have spoken out and said that ‘multiculturism has not worked’. Yet they have legislated themselves out of dealing with the issues which they have recognised as being a problem. they know what they have done. Many did it in order to ‘gain support’. Indeed the biggest political aim is to gain support among ‘focus groups’, the only one of which has no real governmental representation is the ‘white (doing ok) male’.

    When was the last time you heard any party talk about how to attract the votes of ‘white men’. Put simply, you haven’t ! Yet this is (in the UK) where the powerhouse of society stems from because you cannot ignore biology and culture. As the ‘white male’ has been denigrated and ignored, the country has slid lower and lower in its ability to remain at the top of the pile in world effectiveness terms. This is the source from where we will rise again. But it will take time as those written off generations of ‘white males’ produce a new generation who want more for their offspring.

    I think it will happen through violent means (though I do not hope for it). You only have to look at Golden Dawn for those in Greece who just want more for themselves. I am not saying that GD is the answer, but it is where the answer (unfortunately) starts. The collapse of democracy into the ‘lawless state’, the purge of the ‘undesireables’, the rise of the dictator, followed at long last by (once again) the demand for freedom.

    We are in the UK at the ‘lawless state’ stage………the rest is (and will be again) history.


  41. Edward Spalton

    “Mr Cameron has not reversed it.” It is now demographically unreversible without using methods that few would contemplate. The indigenous people are about become the new Aborigines or Red Indians.



  42. I should add that the ‘dictator’ could be benevolent but whether or not, he (and it will be male) will eventually either get assassinated or die and be replaced. If benevolent he will lead by example to a democratically elected (and held in check) government. With no checks on Government the circle will turn. Over the last century the checks (which guarantee the LAWFUL STATE) we used to have were thrown away (or slowly dismantled) which is why the wheel is turning once again.


  43. Yes you do………….the people of the other countries in the main. However I would suggest that most other governments are on agenda’s which are not so allied to the people.


  44. @Gemma, yes we know how wonderful Germany is. the shining light to the world. However in one breath you are slating the idea the the ‘ship owners’ should be taxed whilst suggesting the a ‘proper tax regime’ should be hammered into the Greek psyche with an oversized mallet.

    Fact is that ‘tax’ should be minimal in order that social needs be met. And whether or not you like it, Germans are being overtaxed in order that your wonderful German leaders can keep their dream alive. All the Greek people bought into was what they were told was ‘the way things would be in the EU’. That their governments in collusion with other EU governments (Yep those German wonders were there again) to tell the Greek people what a great idea it was to be getting joined up with these other rich nations. It is the politicians which you should be slating as they control everything (I wish they didn’t) from the tax to the fraud and tax evasion.

    Now I have some friends who are German and have nothing against the German people. But you seem to think that the ‘ordinary greek people’ have any control (or should go hand their tax moneys into the tax offices – to be trousered) in order to ensure that their government can either steal, waste or bribe with it. It would appear also that German industry is not averse to encouraging ‘sharp practices’ either. On top of that please do not go down the ‘but the UK does xxxxx’ line………..I’ll not argue that the UK is any cleaner than Germany…………but it is the top eschelons which are the problem……….not the people.

    Oh, and if they have a greek ‘culture’ which accepts bribary and corruption as the way their society operates, who are you (and who is Germany) to tell them that they have to change their culture to suit some other entity ? We get enough of that through EU dictat (and our own clowns in government) anyway.


  45. Correction from above…
    ‘ship owners’ should be taxed …….to……..‘ship owners’ should NOT be taxed .

    Ignore earlier entry of same :)


  46. Into our town the hangman came,
    smelling of gold and blood and flame.
    He paced our bricks with a different air,
    and built his frame on the courthouse square.
    The scaffold stood by the courthouse side,
    only as wide as the door was wide
    with a frame as tall, or a little more,
    than the capping sill of the courthouse door.

    And we wondered whenever we had the time,
    Who the criminal? What the crime?
    The hangman judged with the yellow twist
    of knotted hemp in his busy fist.

    And innocent though we were with dread,
    we passed those eyes of buckshot lead.
    Till one cried, “Hangman, who is he,
    for whom you raised the gallows-tree?”

    Then a twinkle grew in his buckshot eye
    and he gave a riddle instead of reply.
    “He who serves me best,” said he
    “Shall earn the rope on the gallows-tree.”

    And he stepped down and laid his hand
    on a man who came from another land.
    And we breathed again, for anothers grief
    at the hangmans hand, was our relief.

    And the gallows frame on the courthouse lawn
    by tomorrow’s sun would be struck and gone.
    So we gave him way and no one spoke
    out of respect for his hangmans cloak.

    The next day’s sun looked mildly down
    on roof and street in our quiet town;
    and stark and black in the morning air
    the gallows-tree on the courthouse square.

    And the hangman stood at his usual stand
    with the yellow hemp in his busy hand.
    With his buckshot eye and his jaw like a pike,
    and his air so knowing and business-like.

    And we cried, “Hangman, have you not done,
    yesterday with the alien one?”
    Then we fell silent and stood amazed.
    “Oh, not for him was the gallows raised.”

    He laughed a laugh as he looked at us,
    “Do you think I’ve gone to all this fuss,
    To hang one man? That’s the thing I do.
    To stretch the rope when the rope is new.”

    Above our silence a voice cried “Shame!”
    and into our midst the hangman came;
    to that mans place, “Do you hold,” said he,
    “With him that was meat for the gallows-tree?”

    He laid his hand on that one’s arm
    and we shrank back in quick alarm.
    We gave him way, and no one spoke,
    out of fear of the hangmans cloak.

    That night we saw with dread surprise
    the hangmans scaffold had grown in size.
    Fed by the blood beneath the chute,
    the gallows-tree had taken root.

    Now as wide, or a little more
    than the steps that led to the courthouse door.
    As tall as the writing, or nearly as tall,
    half way up on the courthouse wall.

    The third he took, we had all heard tell,
    was a usurer…, an infidel.
    And “What” said the hangman, “Have you to do
    with the gallows-bound…, and he a Jew?”

    And we cried out, “Is this one he
    who has served you well and faithfully?”
    The hangman smiled, “It’s a clever scheme
    to try the strength of the gallows beam.”

    The fourth man’s dark accusing song
    had scratched our comfort hard and long.
    “And what concern,” he gave us back,
    “Have you … for the doomed and black?”

    The fifth, the sixth, and we cried again,
    “Hangman, hangman, is this the man?”
    “It’s a trick”, said he, “that we hangman know
    for easing the trap when the trap springs slow.”

    And so we ceased and asked now more
    as the hangman tallied his bloody score.
    And sun by sun, and night by night
    the gallows grew to monstrous height.

    The wings of the scaffold opened wide
    until they covered the square from side to side.
    And the monster cross beam looking down,
    cast its shadow across the town.

    Then through the town the hangman came
    and called through the empy streets…my name.
    I looked at the gallows soaring tall
    and thought … there’s no one left at all

    for hanging … and so he called to me
    to help take down the gallows-tree.
    And I went out with right good hope
    to the hangmans tree and the hangmans rope.

    He smiled at me as I came down
    to the courthouse square…through the silent town.
    Supple and stretched in his busy hand,
    was the yellow twist of hempen strand.

    He whistled his tune as he tried the trap
    and it sprang down with a ready snap.
    Then with a smile of awful command,
    He laid his hand upon my hand.

    “You tricked me Hangman.” I shouted then,
    “That your scaffold was built for other men,
    and I’m no henchman of yours.” I cried.
    “You lied to me Hangman, foully lied.”

    Then a twinkle grew in his buckshot eye,
    “Lied to you…tricked you?” He said “Not I…
    for I answered straight and told you true.
    The scaffold was raised for none but you.”

    “For who has served more faithfully?
    With your coward’s hope.” said He,
    “And where are the others that might have stood
    side by your side, in the common good?”

    “Dead!” I answered, and amiably
    “Murdered,” the Hangman corrected me.
    “First the alien … then the Jew.
    I did no more than you let me do.”

    Beneath the beam that blocked the sky
    none before stood so alone as I.
    The Hangman then strapped me…with no voice there
    to cry “Stay!” … for me in the empty square.


  47. Morningstar

    Fact is that ‘tax’ should be minimal in order that social needs be met.

    that is essentially what the Germans have. Sure, you will disagree with this. I note that when I say anything against Germany, nobody – and that includes you – makes any comment (do you take any notice??). You only make a comment when I say something that you feel is positive. Come on!!

    Oh, and if they have a greek ‘culture’ which accepts bribary and corruption as the way their society operates, who are you (and who is Germany) to tell them that they have to change their culture to suit some other entity ?

    Let us get one thing straight here. Corruption exists because a sensible administration does not exist. Corruption is there because someone is not doing their job properly. Or more likely, can’t. That is not my fault and it is not yours, it is something that has grown up over decades in Greece – and it needs sorting! That is what Germany wants. When Greece can sort its own affairs out and get itself back on track, the Germans will be as pleased as anyone.

    If everyone does nothing, then they have corruption to deal with and the costs that it entails.

    Remember what I said above:

    <blockquote.Can you imagine what the foreign oil concerns are going to say to the Greek government??? “Oh, look what you did for the shipowners!”

    Remember that Starbucks paid 35p in taxes in the UK … they couldn’t get away with that in Germany.

    Whatever Germany does in Greece, it will have at least tried to set up a proper taxation system so that anyone coming along and exploiting their wealth has to pay their fair dues to Greece!

    That is what this is all about, and simply avoiding the argument because “the Greeks can’t do anything and the Germans are being overtaxed as it is” is merely to play into the hands of the American corporations.


  48. “If we are not to conform with The Plan, then whatever is thrown at us- either in the UK or the rest of the EU- it is absolutely crucial that society does not turn upon itself. ”

    No chance at all that this won’t be the enivitable outcome. Too many us/them paradigms now in play across the Western world. Rich / Poor. 1% / 99%, British (French, german, Greek, etc) / Johnny Foreigner, Red / Blue, Benefit Scounger / Hard Worker….. and so on almost to infinity.

    Almost like the whole thing has been done on purpose to once again postpone that ‘war between the population and the bankers’ (and the politicians, corporates and Mandarins that hang on their coat tails).


  49. Already are. If you’re unambiguously a ‘national’ in your country of residence, take a walk through the ‘ethnic’ areas of any decent sized town and you’ll note the thinly veiled hostility you’ll receive, where 5 or more years ago, you’d have been treated more or less like any other passerby. Or ignored.

    My job takes me through a lot of these areas fairly regularly and I can see it for myself. Even my colleague, who’s generally as thick skinned as a Rhino and as self-centered as a dartboard, has started to remark upon it recently.

    The pot is boiling and it won’t take much for it overflow, unless some common sense prevails. And, as the one thing the ‘elite’ definitely will not countenance is any diminuation of their wealth and power, said common sense is unlikely to be easily injected – since it’s basic inequality (legally, morally and financially) in society that lies at the heart of the matter.


  50. I look in late, and find a rich and thought-provoking Post and comment thread ready and waiting.

    If anyone is still reading, I offer two thoughts.

    When government becomes incompetent – corrupt or not – people take action on their own, and worrying forces may force an entry.

    Democracy is not our first concern. Our first concern must always be liberty; democracy follows later when liberty, together with responsibility, is firmly established.

    (I would add that that happy condition seems to last only about two centuries, going by the experience of Athens, Rome, the US and Britain, then it goes wrong and we have to start again.)


  51. @zoompad , no girl , is not hard to understand , you have posted before about your wounds and your battles and we understand .Sadness and pain are unpleasant but normal .Thank you for posting for us , your thoughts your feelings . You have the interest and you read us and you respond as well even if depressed . Hope soon all your pains and devils become your angels .


  52. Hence why my politics are born out of pity not envy,who would wish to live in such a world,

    When i was young i pitted my pets
    how lucky to be human was i
    when i was young how wonderful were my thoughts
    how i pitted the grass for having none

    When i was young,how full of hope i was
    how i pitted the ant for the lack of it
    when i was young ,i believed in mankind
    how i pitted the horse for being a horse
    when i was young how the stars shone so bright
    a beacon for mankind to follow

    Entrusted with this how noble and lucky was i

    Now i am older i envy my pets
    how unlucky am i to be human
    now i am older,how misplaced were my thoughts
    how i envy the grass for not having any
    now that i am older,how forlorn were my hopes
    how i envy the ant that had none
    now that i am older,i despair in man
    how i envy the horse for being a horse
    now that i am older,how the stars shine so bright
    like beacon for mankind to follow

    Entrusted with this,how ignoble and unlucky am i


  53. It’s hard, very hard, to struggle against depression, but it must do good to be able to write about it on sites like this, where thanks to Mr.W, we can air our views. Keep on fighting, Zoompad, every day we are alive is a bonus, as the alternative doesn’t attract. On the whole, the world is a good place, & there are decent people everywhere, don’t lose heart.


  54. MorningStar,
    You try getting elected on an honest ticket. In the UK we now have a position where the size of the State is too big for the tax base to support. You try cut anything – and lets be honest about it: the Coalition, for all the waffle, has cut b***** all. So we are now in a position that if you honestly say ‘we would cut this, that or the other’ you really wont be elected. As I said we are easy bought.

    But then you get other issues where no political party reflects public opinion. The EU is a perfect example of what I mean. The public are hostile to the EU and its deluded nonsense and it now seems a majority would vote to leave the EU. No party, save UKIP, reflects this view. Nor does the political class reflect public opinion on Capital Punishment where again the majority would never have abolished hanging. I do not advocate the rope, merely I point out that there is a disconnect between the people and the political class.

    On your wider point about the media I would prefer more diversity in the media. At present news is dominated by one provider: the BBC. The print media is a declining market, so I do feel that in the broadcast media we need more diversity. And lets face facts: the BBC does have a left of centre agenda (usually that days Guardian), which it never ceases to ram down our throats.


  55. Your post has brought home to me Edmund Burke’s famous quote. “All that is necessary for evil to succeed is for good men to do nothing”

    My father suffered very badly from depression and stopped caring about anything. Despite the aweful place your at right now you still care enough about other people to try and make a difference, which many of us who are in tip top form can’t be asked too do. Good Luck and God Bless


  56. “It was their deliberate intent to cause irreversible demographic change with electoral benefits for Labour.”

    Come off it. New Labour were desperate to keep big business onside with plenty of cheap labour AND avoid the inflationary effects of full employment, which they could have had during the boom. I am the type of lefty who has never been a fan of unlimited immigration and I don’t believe it is racist to criticise it. BUT let’s be honest with ourselves – the world is full of Brits working abroad. From Shanghai to the Costa Blanca via Dubai there are more British people living and working than there has been immigration to here. Indeed there are more Brits working in the EU than EU migrants here. You can decry it as a fault of the Left but there are plenty of Free Marketeers who love it too.

    And before you start about immigrants not respecting the culture here, take a look at the Brits in Spain. A total refusal to speak the local language or integrate. They are there for ‘the weather’. I was in Shanghai for a while in 2007 and tensions were clearly running high between locals and the expats who openly disdained Chinese culture.

    We can’t have it both ways.


  57. “but a lot of elderly people show support”
    “especially in troubled parts of the country”

    If you have very large numbers of young male illegal immigrants combined with an economic collapse where and how are they going to get money?


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