Moderate Muslims confirm that criticism of Mohammed is hate speech. George Orwell spins in grave.

Bear with me on this one, only its special pleading makes me want to weep for our lost tolerance and common sense.

The head of a leading Islamic organisation last Saturday called for “a global ban on offending the character of the Prophet Muhammed”, saying that it should be equated with hate speech.

Such a ban, suggested Ekmeleddin Ihsanoglu – Secretary general of the Organization of Islamic Cooperation in an AP interview – would demonstrate how an interconnected world respected different cultural sensitivities.

Hold off on the laughter, it gets funnier still.

“If the Western world fails to understand the sensitivity of the Muslim world, then we are in trouble,” Ihsanoglu threatened, for such provocations posed “a threat to international peace and security and the sanctity of life.”

“We are not saying stop free speech. We are staying stop hate speech,” Ihsanoglu added. He said he was not calling for a ban on criticizing Islam, but specifically, on denigrating its founding prophet.

Er, right. So he was calling for a global ban on criticising Muhammed. That sounds reasonable I suppose. If you’re Mohammedan.

All this was reported in the Washington Post – not a newspaper readily associated with illiberal views. The Post added that ‘Ihsanoglu’s call also echoed the views of other moderate Muslim scholars and leaders, who have urged the U.N. and international bodies to define global standards on religious expression and to help prevent incitement — particularly Islamaphobia’.

Now of course, seven out of eight of the atrocities committed in the name of religion having been perpetrated by Islamics over the last three years, all Islamaphobia must of course be mercilessly wiped out – being as it is an irrational fear with no basis in reality. And given that these are the views of ‘other moderate Muslim scholars and leaders’, do we not have here the ultimate in reassurance for Jews, Christians, Buddhists, agnostics and atheists alike?

Even the Washington Post had to slip back into apologetic practialities re this one, observing that ‘it appeared difficult to see how such a provision proposed by Ihsanoglu could ever work — even if it was agreed to — because of the easy access to social media websites on the Internet that can be used to spread offensive material’. Never mind the Nazi insistence on obedience contained therein.

The blindness of the liberal West to the demands of these lunatics remains a mystery to me. Perhaps somebody in the comment threads can explain to me how we have arrived at this blindfolded state.


104 thoughts on “Moderate Muslims confirm that criticism of Mohammed is hate speech. George Orwell spins in grave.

  1. It’s not much different elsewhere. this from Paul Craig Roberts: “You can’t even have an honest criticism that Israel is in danger without being called an anti-Semite.”
    Now, ironically these two groups are diametrically opposed but with the same view on their beliefs. Think we can all see where this one’s going…

  2. “The blindness of the liberal West to the demands of these lunatics remains a mystery to me. Perhaps somebody in the comment threads can explain to me how we have arrived at this blindfolded state.”
    It is no more “blindness” than it is a “mystery” to you.

  3. I’ve been arguing the same as you my friend – I feel it’s now a duty to criticize Muhammed or risk being cowed by the self-styled believers.
    I used to teach sociology and when we were looking at religion I got the class to bring in their own holy books and related material. We had many faiths and some atheists (including myself). Everyone was really cool except the followers of Islam who wouldn’t accept the other positions had any merit.
    With regard to the point made by your other correspondent about Israel, I would say they have plenty in common with Islam – they can’t bear criticism due to the weakness of their positions.
    Nice blog mate

  4. I want the absolute freedom to express my point of view – I’m bu**ered if I will be constrained by any priest, prophet, imam or rabbi.
    This IS a valid opinion.
    I refuse to accept that anyone can be offended by my opinion differing from theirs. If you want to believe the moon is made of cream cheese I will think you are barmy – and I will argue vociferously with you, but I will also defend your right to harbour that stupid belief while I laugh out loud in your face at your stupidity. For moon = cream cheese read “god exists”.
    I would rather believe in fairies at the bottom of the garden.
    There is definitely NOT any kind of supernatural god. Never has been. Never will be. And strike me dead right now if I’m wrong.
    See – still here!
    I may, just may – on a sloppy romantic day – concede that “god” just may be “love”. But then that’ll set off just another chain of reasoning.
    It’s all down to Darwin and the genetics of evolution, mate.
    It’s part of the firmware in our brains.
    Roll on “Brain Version 2015.69” available from your nearest firmware updater online.
    And can we please uninstall “Religious Twaddle Versions 3rd to 13th Century” right NOW.
    Grow up everyone.

  5. (Permettez-moi de vous écrire en français, je sais que vous le maîtrisez).
    L’explication de ce laxisme, demandez-vous? Mais le fric, Monsieur, le fric! Pour faire des affaires, et gagner beaucoup d’argent, il ne faut pas qu’il y ait de vagues. Le libéralisme (économique) qui nous gouverne est prêt à tout accepter — et tout le monde est prêt à se soumettre. Au fait, que signifie le mot ISLAM ? “Soumission”, exactement. Quant aux “islamistes modérés”, rions ensemble, n’est-ce pas?
    Merci pour vos chroniques, elles sont toujours réjouissantes et salutaires … et quelles belles leçons de langue anglaise! Merci, encore…

  6. J’ajoute à mon message précédent cet adage portugais: “Não há pior cego que aquele que não quer ver” ==> “Il y a pas de pire aveugle que celui qui ne veut pas voir”…

  7. Western post-Christian leaders, believing in nothing but their own entitlement to office, might very well be more than half willing to try to appease this demand. It will give them a quieter life and they have already been successful in taming their indigenous populations with multi-culti laws of this sort against “hate speech”. They either do not understand or are in denial about what they have done with deliberate mass immigration. That is why they make ridiculous statements about Islam being a “religion of peace” in spite of 1400 years evidence to the contrary. It is a religion of peace, of course, but only upon the corpses or political submission of every last non Muslim,

    Professor Jansen, a key witness at the Geert Wilders trial was actually approached privately by the judge who insisted on the prosecution (against the advice of the regular prosecutors). Jansen is a highly qualified Arabist. His evidence was, in short, “There are moderate Muslims but there can be no such thing as moderate Islam because the faith is determined for all time by its scriptures”. Jansen was not allowed to testify himself but his statement was read into the record by the second panel of judges, appointed after this attempt at witness nobbling came to light.

    A moderate Muslim may be one who does not immediately kill a Muslim who stops being a Muslim but he is very unlikely to say that it is wrong to kill such an apostate. He too would become an apostate, if he did. No Muslim religious leader could ever resile from this demand of their faith. All they can do is say “Don’t do it now, chaps” or words to that effect. There are some non-violent sects related to Islam, like the Ahmadis, but orthodox Muslims regard them as heretic and are killing and persecuting them today in Indonesia.

    I have every cause to be grateful to our late GP, who was a Muslim and a most conscientious man, making three unasked house visits to check up on one of our children who was very young with a dangerous infection. So it is the ideology which is the enemy and there are different degrees of keenness amongst its followers.

    Having read the book and some commentaries, there is no doubt in my mind that Islam is a totalitarian religious/political/economic system of thought- the longest established and most successful form of fascism – one reason it was so admired by people like Bonaparte, Adolf Hitler etc. Incidentally, the Grand Mufti of Jerusalem whom Hitler used as a recruiting officer for his numerous Muslim military formations, was uncle to Yasser Arafat.

    There is a guide in Christian scripture to discerning false prophets
    “By their fruits ye shall know them”.
    And the fruits are not only the aggressions of Islam but the craven, fearful, appeasing mindset of our supposed leaders.

  8. The Turk Erdogan once said, “There is no such thing as a ‘moderate muslim, nor an ‘extremist muslim. There are only muslims. And there is only Islam”.
    We have been brought to this state by un-caring & cowardly, treacherous politicians. The people (sheeple?) are being treated like mushrooms, i.e. kept in the dark & fed on sh….t.

  9. He’s not spinning in his grave, he’s laid there saying I told you so……
    His 1984 was a warning was it not?

  10. A post on Reddit, a very interesting read:

    Islam is not a religion like any other, here’s why.

    I live in a small country in Europe named Belgium. We have “freedom of religion”. There is a strict separation between Church and State. Officially, we are a catholic country but nowadays we have mainly agnostics and atheists, our churches stay empty on sundays.
    We have many different religions, and many different cultures here in Belgium. None of them posed a big problem, but Islam really is an exception.
    What I have learned is that Islam is not a religion like any other. Let me explain: Most religions and most cultures are compatible with Belgian culture and law, and just fit in. Islam however, is not just a religion as how we here define “religion”. Islam is a whole package. Islam contains a political system, economic system, justice, education, culture and religion.
    When Muslims come to Europe to live their lives, this creates impact.

    Read the rest of the post is here:

  11. That’s about the long and the short of it. If you go to Topkapi Palace you will find Mohammed’s sword. Where is Christ’s sword ? There isn’t one. Therein lies the difference. Mohammed was a ruler and sought power himself: Christ did not.

    And we are now in a position where most of our leaders don’t believe in anything. You only have examine Rowan Williams and his wooly views on Islam to see how far the rot has gone. Mohammed was, in theological terms, an ‘anti-Christ’ (note, not ‘the’) because he denied the divinity of Christ. Islam is a heretical belief system. We should say to those of the Muslim religion ‘You are free to follow your religion in our land, should you wish. But you must acknowledge the supremacy of our Law and bow the knee to our Sovereign. If you don’t like that or wont do that then there is the door. Goodbye’.

  12. I was starting to like this blog, until I read this ignorant article and the associated. Ignorant comments,

    For a start, Islam is not centrally organized and any Muslim can opine any thoughts they like regarding what the west should or shouldn’t do, including the Muslim bigots and crazies you seem to love to quote,

    Then there is the question of the golden rule, try applying it sometime, try replacing the word Muslim with Jew and see how it sounds, exactly – racist crap, furthermore, there actually are hard line orthodox Jews who mirror the worst behaviour of certain Muslim jihadists, only they don’t use suicide bombers because they have much better armaments,

    Furthermore, many countries do have laws against hate speech, Australia among them, and if you haven’t guessed the Jewish community were the main advocates of that law. Notwithstanding that, we are even giving Gerry winders a visa.

    Having said that, yes, there are Muslims who regard us as deeply alien and don’t want to be like us, but not the ones that drown in their thousands trying to emigrate.

  13. Again O/T but, this from a relative of mine..”Anyway, Just got back from Timor Leste selling my Gas Turbines, there is an opportunity to open a bank there, would you or do you know who would be interested. Regulations are next to non-existent, so this could be a quite easy and good opportunity. competition is limited to ANZ and Bank Mandiri from Indonesia.”

    See, when there is an opportunity to scam, there is always a scumbag ready to take up the baton. Human nature.

  14. A more general point is of Muslims feeling slighted by the misuse of their prophet’s name. Well, that is fine by me, just as long as they do not misuse the name of the man I consider my saviour. Equal rights, yes?

    Given that Muslims can build mosques in Europe – and in prominent places too – surely a generous thought would be for Muslim countries (I am thinking of Saudi Arabia here, amongst others) to allow the building of churches in their lands.

    It seems impossible for Muslims to allow such openness.

    A further note is of the way in which an English convert to Islam is treated in Pakistan. He converted 20+ years ago, and is as fervent believer as any. That does not stop the local population seeing him as a Christian spy and interloper trying to undermine their religion. For whatever reason, these people seem to lack a genuine sense of security in themselves.

  15. Equal rights, yes?. Erm, No. No such thing, if there were, we wouldn’t be having this discussion. And, there are no equal rights in Islam if you are not Islamic..

  16. People are generally in denial about Islam as JW has posted before. There used to be available (on the internet) a map of the slow but progressive creep of Islam throughout the world, particularly Europe, they are slowly but surely spreading their ideasl and beliefs throughout the world, if they are not stopped, their will be no other option other than Islam, and when people wake up to that fact, it will be too late. We have to thank Blair and his supporters for this, because like Clinton and the Muslim Brotherhood they all think they can be ‘appeased’ Beggars belief.

  17. Well, according to AEP (DT) he’s a kindly old King…Yeah right, ready to nuke all his subjects if they threaten his ‘Royal arse”…

  18. “For whatever reason, these people seem to lack a genuine sense of security in themselves.”
    This is the true of all religions (in my opinion) ,as they are not true, just Love misinterpreted to gain control ie the use of fear and ignorance of truth.

  19. “Darkness cannot drive out darkness: only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate: only love can do that.”
    ― Martin Luther King Jr., A Testament of Hope: The Essential Writings and Speeches

  20. ‘And we are now in a position where most of our leaders don’t believe in anything.’ Oh, no, they believe if they keep quiet they will survive long enough to collect their gold plated pensions. That is exactly why they should not be in a position of influence. They are completely ignorant and self-serving. Scumbags.

  21. Wow, it’s becoming a race, who will get us first, the banks, the EU or Islam?
    Whoever wins I am not taking part in their success! Oh, my money is on Islam…hehe Barosso….Marxism will cut no ice with there….

  22. WFD

    I do not agree. That many religions have been twisted in modern and mediaeval times to reflect your view does not mean that this is what they should be. As Andy mentioned above, Mohammed had a sword. Jesus did not, neither did Bhudda.

    For all their faults, neither of them sought to rule the world, neither of them set out to conquer by anything but common sense. A careful reading of the Gospels will tell you that this was one of the temptations that Jesus renounced. Were it so with the religious leaders of today!

    To KFC below: it is time you realized where the truth lies in this world and learned not to be so fearful of other humans. Those who desire to control are usually the weakest. Inverse psychology is an intriguing study.

  23. Not sure where to start on your thread above.
    If I put ‘Jew’ instead of ‘Islamic’, I would be a liar, because Jews don’t insist on anything, beyond haggling.
    Tell you what, I’ll put ‘Mary Poppins’ where ‘Jew’ should be in Mein Kampf.

  24. KFC

    believe me, it will be none of those. The spark will come from a point as yet unseen and unsuspected. I posted a piece from Pott Verlag last year about a possible spark to the euro crisis – coming from Africa of all places! Imagine a situation that is even less likely, and you will begin to get the picture.

    The problem with not allowing others to succeed is that you usually do not get to succeed yourself. I am afraid that being active in society – that means post offices, banks, owning gold and tins of baked beans stacked nine high – means dealing with those who are more successful than you are yourself. It is a tough life. Sorry.

  25. Dear All
    My view is that religions are only pernicious when they have power, and weak blokes take over from true prophets. In 600 years, we have gone from folks on racks to kindly beardie-wierdie happy-clappy vicars. While the latter make me cringe, they do some good – and no harm.
    Islam in its current form is hopelessly childish – a misogynist belief system run by child-men. The funniest sight of all is Harriet Harman having to pretend she likes it.

  26. Harriet Harman is capable of saying what ever she likes because she is another serial denier believing only what she wants to at the time. Oh, scumbag is another descriptor….

  27. 600 years indeed. Western (Christian) calendar 2012. Islamic year 1433. That’s where they are, 1433, six centuries back. When Europe started coming out of the dark Middle Ages. What’s it gonna be for Middle East?

  28. Gemma.
    Bhudda was just a man who looked inside himself to find and defeat the ego and raised his Consciousness of the creation, he went on to help other too.
    Jesus said he was God and the “Only way” was through him.
    Islam says Jesus was a profit and not God.
    I prefer the look inside view, but that is just my view.
    I do agree that religions do contain some fundamental truths of human life/the nature of the creation, and many go way back before the historical time of Jesus.

  29. Dear Jenny, so was the Catholic Church in times not so very past – political system, economic system, justice, education and culture.
    But – eventually – the people saw through all that crap and most of northern Europe got rid of the Pope and his lot of nasty pols.
    Southern Europe went on with it but in their own lovely way just ignored the bits they didn’t much like. [As per Eurozone!]
    Trouble is Islamic culture is still 13th Century living. They just haven’t seen beyond the end of their imam’s nasty noses and learned to think for themselves. It may take another 3 years or 2 generations. Hopefully not.

  30. WFD

    Bhudda may have been “just a man” who raised his consciousness – believe me, that takes some doing. That makes him more than “just a man” in my book.

    Whatever you think of Jesus – profits aside (after all, that is what the banks are praying to him for!!) – look at the words he uses in the Gospels. Simple language that uses a great deal of imagery. It is a style of language that can be translated into practically any other without losing its sense. Whatever else, he was out to communicate.

    Paul’s language is quite different – he was after all a scholar and an intellectual. Jesus was not.

    It is interesting that the Koran is written in a mediaeval Arabic (that is to say, pretty old and antiquated – the Arabs didn’t do mediaeval, did they?). The point is that there are now verses in the Koran that have several meanings and there is energetic debate as to quite what Mohammed intended by his words.

    Draw your own conclusions as to which is the word of God! There is one that is (in its own way) permanent by drawing on essentials. There is one that drew on the circumstances of the times.

  31. KFC

    believe me, whatever you imagine as tough, reckon it as being easy. Stacks of baked beans last so long. By the time it is all over, those bean tins will have rusted into memory.

    There will be two kinds of survivor – those who can live from a handful of cabbage seeds for the next ten years. And those who can shoot them. I have grown enough of my own food to realize that the dream of self-sufficiency has some very sharp edges – mostly called crop failures.

  32. I do not believe that Mohammad is Gods prophet.

    I am sure that some would consider this sentence “hate speech” when it is really free speech, and herein lies the problem.

  33. Gemma.
    My just a man comment was from where he started, (I agree what he achieved was remarkable and most will not achieve that level in a lifetime)
    But if One man/woman can achieve something it shows it can be done and Bhudda pointed to this truth.

    ” look at the words he uses in the Gospels. Simple language that uses a great deal of imagery”
    If god/creator has spoken then it must be for all to hear, so I fully agree with the, simple language and a great deal of imagery, but these truth were about long before the time of Jesus and like a lot of “ways” have been co-oped.

    Paul was know as Paul the liar. (maybe because of his use of language to fit the circumstances of the time, but not for everyone, so corrupted? what would be the point of cheating people to god/creator).

  34. Gemma.
    In this experience it is a tough life, more for some than others.
    How do you judge success?

    Be aware of those ones with the guns and no seeds!

  35. Nick Markakis.
    I don’t have any truck with Islam being the righteous path to the creator, but I do think there is danger with any group who have hate within them.

  36. I agree that these truths were around a long time before Christ; it was Melchizedek who brought the gift of bread and wine to the tired Abraham as he came to Salem (as it was then called). The truths Jesus spoke of were – and are – universal and in that respect, timeless. Believe me, I have dug into them. I have done the “Bhudda” bit only now it is something I want to find in the things around me, not in other realms. The point I want to make here is that Jesus was special – He was the Logos incarnate.

    Look again at the Gospels. Another truth that eludes even the most dedicated of scholars: Jesus begins his ministry at Cana. The water becomes wine. What does Jesus say? “My cup floweth over”. The Logos was finding it hard to squeeze itself into the confines of the human form. Wine is, by the way, one of the essential expressions of creation. Through his ministry, the miracles become less and less frequent. Finally there is the woman who in touching his robe, heals herself of her bleeding. Jesus did not heal her, she took it from him as it were. That was his last miracle. The point I want to make here is that the Logos became human. 100% human, no different than you or I (in essence anyway). Few people go around healing others these days. Jesus, at the end of his ministry did not either. The miracles were owing to his not fitting into the human form entirely. You might ask why. The temptation led not to his being king or whatever else, but to being humble. Human. He did not take the easy way out, he took the route that we humans are required to take. He died.

  37. @ Gemma
    You must have heard this discussion on BBC Radio 4 last sunday morning. We listen to most of the channel’s output, and often remark amongst ourselves that your (Gemma @ The Slog) ‘Points of View’ are usually in tune with the broadcast opinion of the Beeb. Well done, and keep on listening to the informed Voice of the World.

  38. Success – I am going to duck this a little! The reason for doing so is that material success really isn’t success at all. It is the illusion of success (Bhudda would agree with that!). The real essence of success is whether you are happy.

    If you can be happy without something, the closer to true happiness you are. If – like a banker – you need more and more money to be happy, then the further away you are. When you can be happy by simply being as you are and the earth is as it is, and you have literally nothing else* then the happiness you have is total. There is nothing that can make you unhappy.

    That is success for the real human.

    Remember that Jesus did not even have any clothes of his own. He never had any money. In his ministry years at least. He lived on what was given him freely. Is that not success in real human terms – by the above argument in any case.

    The problem with the above in our overly material world is that success is only seen in material (hard, fast, logical) terms. Happiness cannot be measured. It is entirely subjective and wholly without measure. Only you can judge your own happiness. Nobody else. The buck stops with you. That does not mean that it is without worth. It only means that material things lose their value. There are people (see above) whose only value is material – and this leads them away from this understanding. They are in very real ways, emotional cripples.

    That is why I pity bankers.

    *this can be a metaphorical nothingness: meaning you care not for it.

  39. Gemma.
    Thanks for your interesting points, as with the higher up discussions too. You seem to be a very intelligent, thoughtful person and I fully agree with your thoughts on materialism(that is to say now, I was as materialistic as the next man until very recently)
    A massive shock in my life opened my eyes within the last year, a bit like the scene in The Matrix, where Neo Anderson(new/newer son of man) is unplugged from the system.
    It was very frightening/confusing and to a certain degree still is.
    Still very early days for me.
    I’ve got a lot to be very thankful for.
    I am on my journey and wish you well on yours and all others too.
    I could yap on for hours! so, I’ll say good night.

  40. Professor

    as ever your comments are well beneath the level of intellect one would expect from a professor. I do know, my father was one.

    I do wonder who your “we” might be?

    As it happens, the BBC is rather crackly at this distance from Droitwich. I can only receive it on long wave. It is not a channel I listen to often given FM alternatives. Perhaps you need to do some fact checking with your team before your next comment?

  41. Thanks for that! I am glad that your experiences have led to a positive outcome. It is nice to hear of someone who has successfully unplugged themselves. It doesn’t stop the rain falling on your head, it is your attitude to the rain that will have changed. Many have had the chance only to run away from it – or consider it as of no value to their bank balance.

    I will readily admit to being an absolute materialist! That means only that I enjoy the things that surround me. I enjoy the earth that yields my food, and the sky above me.

  42. ” It doesn’t stop the rain falling on your head, it is your attitude to the rain that will have changed” For me, I would say, it’s “changing”
    Excellent words Gemma. TTFN.

  43. If you care enough about your religion to kill for it, start with yourself. Any “religion” that incites riots, and murder over a Youtube video… is simply evil… yet here are these Muslim “scholars” bluntly saying ” if you print cartoons of our prophets we will kill you and you have to understand that its just our religious freedom to do so…” Sorry my tolerance for the terrorist hypocrisy, misogyny, hatred, intolerance, and oppression of Islam is over… I now proclaim that anyone that protests against “the west” should immediately be hung (new religion). Europe better wake up and smell the coffee before these tribal lunatics slide right in.

  44. With danger of been labelled ‘superficial’ i will give you a quote from Tim Winter .“The believer’s greatest argument is his face. True religion lights up
    the face; false religion fills it with insecurity, rage and suspicion”.

  45. The politically forced immigration of muslims into Germany since 1963 will lead to a violent explosion one day. The historical germanic tribes, the Holy Roman Empire, the German states, the Reich and the Federal State all followed for the last two-thousand years and longer the principle of *ius sanguinis*, the right of birth from blood, which is a patrilinear right of birth to a native father with german ancestry. This was changed by the last socialist-green gouvernment against the will of the pople into a hybrid system called the “option model” which incorporates the *ius solis*, the right of birth to the land. There is so much anger, outrage, annoyance, disguised clenched fists and concealed hate (due to forced political correctness) against the muslim immigrants, mostly Turks, in this country that i fear the worst if the social balance will change when crisis finally hits here, too, when people will loose their tittytainment and thus their indifference.

    The obscene amount of never-ending media indoctrination with the terrors of the nazi dictatorship is, in my opinion, a clear sign of fear on the political side, to silence any critizism on the situation in the country and to prevent any kind of social unrest in the nation by driving generation after generation of native Germans into self-loathing and everlasting guilt due to Germany’s nazi history.

    The whole supressed, even demonized national pride and the denial of any form of patriotism since 1945, plus anger of the people in this country on being politically forced into a hypocritical multiculturalism which a majority of the nation does not accept at all will sooner or later terribly explode into a very special, teutonic kind, of civil war.

  46. ps. ps. organized monotheistic book religion is the worst enemy ever known to humankind. It creates hate and fear amongst the peoples, it glorifies terrible war and spills rivers of blood. i still hope for a meteor or comet, a true pole shift or total crash of the financial system. such would immediately stop the religious bullshit, as poeple would simply lack the luxury to hate each other off stupid religious grounds in their basic need to survive.

  47. I agree with you …..there are several Catholic churches here in UAE……not so Saudi Arabia as far as I know?

  48. The Christian West has largely become the non religious West……practially and logically this has created a further imbalance…….the West is trying to counter Islam, the main strength of which is that the religion its self is written and therefore incorruptible, with basically a religious vacuum, within which there is a whole spectrum of views…..
    My understanding is that in many cases Muslims categorize those with no religion below those with an alternative religion, no doubt because of what the Quran (doesn’t) says
    On the face of it all the evidence is that the religious evolution process is just not applicable to Islam, it just keeps revitalising with every new generation….. religious diversity is the achilles heel of the Christian faith not so with Muslim
    In religious terms there are only two ways to restore the balance……either discover some way to ‘evolve’ islam or redefine and expand Christian ideals….
    Start teaching proper history in the Islamic world??

  49. Even better, elevate the importance of a rounded education…..make it a qualification for immigration would be a good start…….surely thats common sense??

  50. The main problem with Islam is the nonexistence of an Islamic ordained clergy and without this, Islam can never be modernised.

  51. I agree with the general idea, but i would replace the words “true” and “false”, with something like “good/kind” and “evil”. IMHO all (present) religions are false.
    Yeah, i ‘m a bit insecure, sometimes i get the road rage and have been raising suspicion for my “Eastern Un-orthodox” views ever since i grew up :-)

  52. tuueyes , i agree ,take into consideration that in some countries religion is the sole source of education and the only spring from which young people can quench their thirst for learning.
    Teach them history and science and do not have the religion and its teachers as the only source that weaves their ideological fabric thread by thread to distortion and misunderstanding .

  53. @Nick , true and false to itself as we want to take it as all religions are based on peace , love and tolerance and are the scholars that distort them .No one is born with hatred or prejudice in his heart ,are the teachings and interpretations that create them .

  54. @Yana: i can agree to the meaning you give to the terms true/false. But:
    …scholars distorting religions’ loving spirit. Hmmm…In Biblical religions i find written scripture of cruelty, violence, punishment of non-believers and sinners, all over.are are. Islam is on top. Old testament is full of violent events and killings. Well…you could be right about Christianity – Jesus did speak only of love and no hate. But for Christians Old Testament is also a sacred book, so…I would accept the Christian claim of non-violence only if they decide to renounce Old Testament.
    At the end of the day, the very idea of one god – my god is one and is the only true god – all the other gods are false – this simple statement carries the seed of intolerance and violence in it’s core. It’s very easy to use this belief as a stepping stone, and build the evil fire of hatred in the hearts of people.
    BTW, the ancient Greek philosophers. Ahead of their times. Most of them suffered too because of their ideas. Away from me any chauvinist ideas – ancient Greeks were no innocent.

  55. the main problem with islam is the absence of an informed and upstanding citizenry.
    as long as the muslim world passively abets extremism, they will be viewed as siding with them. nothing will improve until they stand up to the UMMA.

  56. In both cultures it would be difficult, or illegal, maybe even dangerous, to practise my own buddhist beliefs. Religious tolerance?

  57. @WFD. To illustrate the universality of sublime religious thought , the Christian M. L. King was echoing the sentiments of Gautama Buddha nearly 2,500 years before him; “hatred ceaseth not by hatred; hatred ceaseth but by love.”
    I’m a buddhist with lots of wonderful, admirable friends and colleagues who happen to be Christians, Jews and Muslims. Individually they are cool. It is their religious leaders who are not.
    Extremism isn’t confined to religion; politics and economics too. It is motif of the dark age we are going through. One enlightening post above tells us that Islam is not just a religion, it is a “package” of all the above elements.
    As I see it, the only solution is respectful engagement with each other, one person at a time. And on that note I find it offensive when people are contemptuous and snidey about others’ beliefs, whatever they may be.

  58. Exactly. As a way of ordering society, I can see the underlying reasoning. But to take it as literal ? Sheesh… Was it Pratchett who called it “fairy tales for adults” – maybe Dawkins …?

  59. But WFD – it’s not a question of hate. All we are saying is that the belief system built into the DNA of the religions leads them down a path that is irreconcilable with Western secular democracy. That’s fine – if that’s the path they choose – but don’t deny us the right argue back and have a different view.

  60. We think about our mortgages and our hobbies and about ‘doing things’ like making the fastest car or climbing the highest mountain. How many arab car manufacturers are there? How many arab painters are there, or explorers? What are their hobbies or interests? Whilst we have many, they have only one – their religion, but even that is practised in plain buildings where no art or music is allowed. I know a boy who has recited the Koran three times but could not name one incident in the life of their prophet, so it shows they are not even interested in teaching the details of their own religion to their children – only devotion and loyalty and ‘honour’.

    Imagine what they must think when they see the inside of a huge cathedral, or when they hear Mozart or when they see cars and phones and planes, which they cannot make. This gives them an inferiority complex. Combine this with a huge desire for honour in their ‘group’ and we see why they end up getting all their pride and feeling of honour from their religion and its conquests. If the Palestinians drive the Israelis into the sea, muslims everywhere will feel a shared sense of honour and glory of the conquest, as the group they belong to has ‘achieved something’ and now owns the land where the rival religions started.

    The reason why we cannot understand why they are like this is because we are different. If we were the same, we could understand how honour killing your own daughters can bring honour to your family. This mysterious ‘honour’ must be stronger than the parent-child bond for the daughter killing to take place. Note that other muslims will observe the honour killing and approve, and give the parents and brothers who strangle their sister respect (eg the guards in their prisons respect this group of prisoners and give them an easy time) . When we can understand this concept of honour that they have (and I cannot, for one) then we can understand how they think, and then we could understand how their religion is linked to this honour, and how it is a source of pride and glory to them.

    They also feel as stongly about who their children marry as they do about their religion. Eg if two MUSLIMS both respectable individuals elope they can still be honour killed. When we understand why they feel so strongly about which muslim their child marries (such that when they consider the high risk of birth defects from marrying cousins this comes low down on their list, with honour and group loyalty higher up) we might start to understand this mysterious honour concept that drives them. But clearly it is very powerful, and the same powerful urges apply to their loyalty to their religion.

    In the end their devotion to their group will triumph over our lack of group feeling in the West, as we have not the inclination to defend ourselves. Plus, we have many haters of our own type within our race that insinctively welcome the influx of an intolerant and conquering race into our midst.

    Another interesting observation is that the Pakistani and Indian muslims never see themselves as conquered by arabs and converted to the arab religion by force. No objections at all. But they can hardly contain their outrage that the British ruled them. I know a muslim lady whose great grandparents were Hindus, and were forced to convert by force. Yet she seems to feel no anger or resentfulness at all, and is totally loyal to Islam.

  61. Gemma -I believe I read somewhere that naggar in aramaic translates to Greek to English as carpenter or scholar .How do you know for certain what he was.

  62. JHM writes “The obscene amount of never-ending media indoctrination with the terrors of the nazi dictatorship is, in my opinion, a clear sign of fear on the political side, to silence any critizism on the situation in the country and to prevent any kind of social unrest in the nation by driving generation after generation of native Germans into self-loathing and everlasting guilt due to Germany’s nazi history”

    There is a TV history documentary called something like ‘nazism – lessons from history’ but there will never be a matching one called ‘communism – lessons from history’

    This message described by JHM will also prevent the Jewish Israelis from doing anything about the arab Israelis that they tolerate in their country, as any attempt to remove them from their lands will be condemned by their own left-wing and their own media as being like nazis. (How tolerant are arab countries of Jews living in their midst by comparison?) The Jews will not be allowed to do anything about the arab Israelis, who are breeding far faster than the Jews and in a few generations will outnumber them, then via ‘democracy’ of one man one vote, simply take over. That is the fate of Israel. We in the West , and Israel, are so terrified by this message of the evils of ‘ethnic cleansing’ that we are simply letting the situation get worse and worse, until in the end will be conflict and war. Then the enemy within, those Westerners who hate their own race, and who now have the upper hand in the media and politics, will rejoice at the demise of their own nations.

  63. The blindness of the liberal West to the demands of these lunatics remains a mystery to me. Perhaps somebody in the comment threads can explain to me how we have arrived at this blindfolded state.
    Can I suggest that The EU’s hunger to create a flexible workforce, import cheap labour to dumb down labour costs, is a major building brick for the federalisation of Europe.
    And that is why we now have tolerance laws in abundance, that dumb down free speech.
    Nothing will be allowed to upset the the grand plan, for a cheap workforce in a federalised Europe.
    Keeping a lid on it, springs to mind.

  64. BillyHippo and JHM,

    So an Arab Israeli does not have a country, history over many centuries has shown Jewish communities living in Muslim nations, however, since 1948 and the creation of Israel and the elimination of Palestine as a country things have been different, I wonder why?

    I guess you do not find it ironic that you imply that you wish Israel to eliminate the Arabs from ‘democratic (your view) Israel’ by inflicting on the world another round of ethnic cleansing to ‘improve Israel’, I hope I have misunderstood you but please state clearly your ‘solution’ to the Palestinians question?

    Is not the official West position, the UN resolution (who’s number I can not definitely recall but know that it is only a Chapter 6 and not Chapter 7 due solely to objections from the US and Israel), the one that requires Israel to retreat to the 1967 borders is still the official West position, if I am wrong please update me?

  65. The largest threat to the west by immigration from the east, is. lack of communication.
    The answer, if within, say five years, you have not learned to read, write the language of your host country. Then you, and your family, return to the country you came from.
    End all the translation of the host countries documentation into 57+ languages. If you want to use our welfare, social system etc. learn the host countries language.
    How do you think Arabic reachs from Morrocco to Arabian Peninsula? Answer, by the use of the above.

  66. BillyHippo,

    Firstly your broad generalisations are pathetic, when you refer to Muslims there are circa 1.6 Billion persons worldwide apparently.

    That you know one Muslim lady is as irrelevant as my Indian ancestors, certainly prior to 1852 when my grandfather was born, and his parents were definitely Christian, by dint of their ancestors being given the generous option of becoming Christians or dying instantly.

    Generalisations based on inappropriately tiny samples are worthless pap.

    You should read your hate ridden comments and reflect if they might more appropriately apply to you when you refer to the enemy within.

    I am a very lapsed Christian and a British passport holder since birth, before you assign me to your ‘gas chamber queue’

    Finally I guess you have never heard of or seen the Taj Mahal that Muslim built mausoleum and that you would never drive using M/East petrol/diesel or be cured or assisted by any Muslim ever?

  67. “Altergoman October 3, 2012 at 11:13 am BillyHippo and JHM, but please state clearly your ‘solution’ to the Palestinians question?”
    In reply to Altergoman, if you look at a map you will see VAST CONTINENTS of arab lands near Israel where muslims live. The Palestinians could settle there. There is plenty of room and plenty of oil wealth. But Palestinians who have been offered considerable compensation for ‘their’ land do not want the compensation. They prefer conflict and war as with it comes the prospect of the ‘honour’ and ‘glory’ of conquest that they value more highly that their own peace and prosperity. And there are plenty of enemy within in the West to help the arabs and their goals of conquest. The enemy within in this country would love to do to their own country what they are currently hoping to bring about in Israel within their lifetimes, and which they successfully brought about in S.Rhodesia and S Africa.

  68. MaxC
    ” I find it offensive when people are contemptuous and snidey about others’ beliefs, whatever they may be.”

    Respectfully, I disagree with your above statement, in that if someone else’s believe is a harmful one, then I and anyone else has every right to point that out or even move against that/those person/s. Do what you will but cause no harm. NOT anything goes because it is Your belief.

    Buddha et al was pointing out a truth, he didn’t invent it.
    I do have great respect for Buddha.

  69. I think you have been listening to myths about the British in India. There was no policy to convert the natives to Christianity. It is true that there were many mssionaries who founded schools such as the Calcutta Boys’ School, but conversion of the natives to Christianity was not part of British policy and these missionaries were individuals who used their own money. The attitude of the British was that the Indians should keep their own religion. It was the same in Africa – there were many Christian missionaries, but the government did not support them and were often hostile to them.
    As for your other comments – other readers can judge from your attitude whether the mass immigration currently being forced on this country by the ruling elite is (a) good for this country and our peace and harmony (b) going to lead to conflict. If the answer is (b) then it means our current leaders are not acting in our own national interest. If this is the case, we need to find the motive as to why they would do this to their own country.

  70. Hysteria
    ” I do think there is danger with any group who have hate within them.”
    The above is my point. Whether it is any religion or communism or a Western system or any grouping with hate within their ways/actions/speech.

  71. Nick , I understand where you come from.I had a lifelong battle with God .At the end i gave up reading bibles or tibetan scrips.I read novels , i hear music .They teach me to comprehend the world as a question .There is wisdom and tolerance in that attitude.I am not for the ones with the answers and the certainties , call them Islam ,Marx ,Goldman Sachs or whatever .Books and music touch something far deeper and sweeter in me .They give me a glimpse of what i might be, in my best self . In the rest of our world , there are political plans ,fiscal unions ,workers rights , Christ’s kingdom on earth and ideal Islamic states , people ready to die and kill for them .I will stick to my books and my music .

  72. Two wrongs don’t make a right.
    Isn’t it in the Jewish religion that God will come (without ambiguity) and give them a land to call their own? so, why just take it and ride against their own teachings?
    I am asking as I don’t understand that point, maybe I’ve just misunderstood something.

  73. @Trinquet, I do not understand this comment. The ‘Enlightenment’ which is credited with jump starting the move to secularism in the West, never had ordained clergy.
    I still do not understand the process in the West which tolerated the growth of secularism and I understand the the ‘Founding Fathers’ of America considered themselves secularists rather than christians.
    Some have argued that the emergence of ‘Protestantism’ led to the growth of tolerance of secularists and I have even read that the Anglican Church was a prime mover in the U,K, due to its self-criticism and tolerance.
    My reading of history was that the Protestants were as vicious in the pursuit of their vision of God as were the Papists ( and I include the Anglican church in this viciousness.). So, something changed towards the end of the 18th century and accelerated into the 19th and 20th centuries which allowed this process to occur.
    My only real correlation with this growth in tolerance is the blood-letting that ocuured between this period culminating in the 100 years war of the 20th century, which allowed this process to occur. Each major blood-letting helped discredit the staus quo and break down barriers, culminating in the final orgy of WWII.
    If this link, of destroying the staus quo, over a period of centuries, was the real factor in transforming our societies then we are in for a difficult time over an extended period as the ‘Muslim’ world goes through its own upheavals.
    We will be affected by this as we affected the rest of the world in our journey towards enlightenment.

  74. Dear MaxC

    What is your basis of that statement pertaining to Judaism, and i suspect Israel in particular? I live in the center of Jerusalem (the west side where you can walk around without fearing being stoned or attacked by Jihadists). Across the street from my apartment is a beautiful Baptist Church. Around the corner is a Scientology church. When i was walking to synagogue on Rosh Hashanah everybody was pleasantly greeting everyone else from all faiths (well not muslims). Buddists live here quite happily as does almost representatives of every faith, except for one.

    Knee jerk accusations without substance behind them are as closed minded as the nicely described lunacy of the Islamists on the topic of criticising their prophet.

  75. BillyHippo and JHM,

    The Palestinian lived in Palestine currently renamed Israel for an eternity, your comments about vast continents other than Palestine, is risible, the vast majority of Israeli Jews are new to the territory, ie post 1948.

    Further that Palestinians have been offered fair compensation is again hardly worthy of examination, have you not heard of the principle of ‘willing buyer willing seller’.

    Why have Israeli Jews the right to surplant the rights of the the Arabs who were peaceably and legally living there in Palestine, until some external body, who apparently was too lazy to inform themselves of the ‘facts on the ground’ ie the vast majority of inhabitants in Palestine at the time were Arabs not Jews that Balfour presumably believed was the case.

    For the Palestinians ownership being 9/10 th of the law has for them disastrously been inverted.

    Finally re India, my grandfather was the principal of a prestigious Christian college in India and, maybe I have as much or more knowledge about things Indian than you, further my Indian side of my ancestors had a couple of Bishops and from accounts from my father were devout Christians but the origin of their conversion remains as I described above something you wish to ignore.

    The Empire’s life was no doubt extended in my view by the UK’s promise that colonials could take up residence in the ‘mother country’ never expecting that any number could or would take up that offer and thinking it outrageous and totally unfair (although benefiting from the enormous profit the UK extracted from the Empire, India in particular) when numbers did.

    The UK economic success has fallen of a cliff since it lost over 90% of the Empire, could there be a correlation between the 2 facts?

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