John Ward January 31, 2012 European chaos

GREEK DEBT TALKS: As social conditions worsen in Greece, Merkel’s annexation request is widely condemned.

Baby keeps wary eye on mad Nanny

But the debt talks are 100% deficient in the talking thing

With the Greek media estimating that 50,000 Athenians are currently sleeping on the streets, three prison Governors told the Government that their institutions could no longer cope with those facing jail terms and tax charges of one form or another. Each prison is designed to hold just over 800 inmates. On average as of yesterday, they were holding 2,320 each. Astonishingly, none of them were bankers.

Everyone from Sarkozy to Juncker told the Fuhrerine that her ~~Gauleiters~~ EU budget commissioners were not to be mentioned again, nor indeed would the issue of Greek sovereignty. Frau Merkel said nothing very much. Nor indeed did those supposed to be engaged in talks about Greek debt….except of course for Olli Rehn, whose job is to keep saying that we are ‘just days’ away from a deal.

The truly bizarre thing about this impasse is that the Athens Government continues to act as if it was running things, whereas in reality Brussels, the ECB and Berlin have been rejecting every bondholder offer for over a week. ~~Goldman Sachs Account Director~~ Greek Prime Minister Lucas Papademos said debt-swap talks ‘have made progress’, but remained predictably vague as to whether the progress was good or bad.

“The fact we’re still at the beginning of 2012 talking about Greece is a sign this problem hasn’t been dealt with,” reasoned U.K. Chancellor of the Exchequer George Osborne, his antennae sensitively tuned to the situation as always. He was just marginally out when he used the verb ‘talking’.

Whether Merkel has been temporarily knocked back is irrelevant: the fact that she and the other mad person Schauble (probably with van Rompuy’s assent) wanted to press ahead with Sovereignty transfer in the first place is the key point here. Portugal is getting closer to the edge, and Italy’s bond yields are up over 6% again. Berlin will put the sovereign takeover thing back on the table again – and the more desperate that EU2012 (the new 25) GmBh get, the more the Fuhrerine will push. For Geli always gets what she wants.

What we need right now is some form of Frankfurt Stauffenberg to emerge and start reading the riot act. Out of one side of its mouth, Berlin refuses to be the Sovereign saviour; but out of the other, it demands control. Both would be disastrous – geopolitically and financially – for Germany.

We are rapidly approaching a critical point.

37Comments

Add yours

1

EXCLUSIVE: SOURCES SUSPECT BERLIN POWER-PLAY IN SCHAUBLE BRINKMANSHIP | The Slog on February 10, 2012 at 11:48 am

[…] don’t let anyone suggest otherwise. Think the power-play is far-fetched? Don’t forget the Gauleiter memo that became an Unthing 48 hours […]

LikeLike
2

michael in D on January 31, 2012 at 9:18 pm

It would be far better for democracy in the nation states, and economically in the long run if Germany left the Euro
For Staffenburg read perhaps Professor Hankel – even Dirk Müller ( Mr Dax ); already april 2010 on Channel 1, when the S**t started hitting the fan he called it “Volksverarschung”
but with the myopic eurocrats having taken charge, without a shred of democratic legitimacy, this is bollox folks, but not as we know it.
do the Greeks, Irish, Portugeuse read the german Papers ?
unemployment is at its lowest level in 20 years, and Merkel makes out it is because we are German
Bollox
it is because of the Euro, pure and simple, that´s why merkel claims the Euro is the glue that hold Europe together – it does not.
it gives merkel a greater hand of cards to get what she wants.
it will soon enough catch germany up, and it will again ruin it, and Europe with it.
if the German has a fault, it is his blind obedience especially through the subliminal orders of a dishonest elite claimg “we should be better Europeans”.
in that case we should take to the streets and be more Greek
The Brits have what a well balanced Democracy needs in spades – healthy scepticism – a defence mechanism which nature equipped you with to defend yourself against bollox
use it and get out of the EU – you know it makes sense

LikeLike
3

Rob13 on January 31, 2012 at 8:40 pm

Today’s revised-down Greek Govt offer to creditors (given that Ange has declined to plug the latest €20bn hole to be identified) will render any IIF sign-up to it pointless: the other creditors will get nothing by agreeing, and some will litigate if required to maximise return. This “negotiation” will unravel just as soon as the IIF has to reveal that they have been playing poker with Happy Families cards – unless there is new taxpayer money injected from the EU at the last minute, quite soon.

LikeLike
4

MickC on January 31, 2012 at 8:38 pm

Gemz,
bit late to respond-sorry.
The difficulty is the pursuit of “concepts” when the results of that pursuit are so destructive.
The bankers and their behaviour are the result of the concept of “the service economy”-and its pursuit by both major British parties when it was obvious that the UK could not be run entirely as such.
The destruction of UK manufacturing was the result of the pursuit of socialism to the exclusion of common sense.
“Concepts”, more particularly idealism, need to be tempered with a large dose of common sense and practicality.

LikeLike
5

timbo614 on January 31, 2012 at 8:18 pm

But our Dave wouldn’t give a toss if he lost 3% of his salary or 30% – it’s meaningless to people as wealthy as him.

LikeLike
6

Bankrupt Taxpayer on January 31, 2012 at 7:42 pm

@Lupulco:
Now you’re talking! Something along these lines is absolutely necessary…but you’re right, it’ll never happen.

One additional advantage of such a scheme is that if an elected govt wanted to spend money on some grand bribe or other, they’d have to find the money for it from existing spending programmes or by reducing the cost of govt itself. Either would be excellent and just imagine if the pols actually got down to reducing state spending by making the process of govt more efficient! Wow!

LikeLike
7

Boxer_AF on January 31, 2012 at 3:37 pm

Max Keiser’s recent thoughts about Greece on the UK censored Press TV.
Thank you the internet.

LikeLike
8

Jwoo on January 31, 2012 at 3:28 pm

“the German banks bleeding people dry are only doing what any decent, upstanding British bank would have done given half the chance.”

Probably, but would they have ‘enjoyed’ it as much.

Only thinking of all those wonderful German tourists who would take it in turns to get up early (I never did meet one prepared to get up as early as I do daily) to break the rules of common decency and thus ‘claim’ the poolside loungers with towels. Whilst bizarrely assuming that the rest of humanity would obey the rules whilst they themselves broke them. No parallels between that activity and what they are doing to Greece, eh?

LikeLike
9

Lupulco on January 31, 2012 at 3:05 pm

Just a thought on what BT said, No Banker etc forces anyone to take a loan.
If our Elected Leaders of ALL PARTIES, plus our Civil Service Mandarins really believed that we are all in it together they could set an example by adopting the following ideas,
1] Their salary/expenses/pension rises to be based on the average yearly rise of CPI + GDP + Wages. [you could use this fig for setting pensions etc]
2] Until our Leaders etc have got the yearly deficit to zero, their pay, and the pensions of retired Leaders etc to be frozen.
3] For every 1% that they have to borrow to finance their grand schemes [bribes to get elected] Their Sal/Exs/Pens to be reduced by 1%
4] I thought of a freeze as in [1] until the National Debt, is below 50% of GDP, but before this happened the current lot would be in their dotage.
This I believe would make our Leaders accountable for their and previous Leaders actions. After all if one cares to check there as only been 5 years out of the past 45 years that any Government as balanced its books. And It was not a consecutive 5 years. The true WMD as happened, compound % + the Financial Sector bailout.
So, A] if they overspend, they are penalised in their pocket, and B] if they cut too much and so hurt their electors they get voted out of office.
Wouldn’t true voter power then make them more accountable to the people who elect them, plus the back bench MP’s would be more inclined to vote out Cabinet Ideas, instead of voting as told by the whips.
I suppose it is wishful thinking, it will never happen. Also we will still be talking about bailouts etc this time next year.

LikeLike
10

"just a housewife" on January 31, 2012 at 2:54 pm

Maybe Greece could use the arms they were bullied into buying from France & Germany to start WW111. Starting on Germany & France. ONLY JOKING!!!

LikeLike
11

maxter on January 31, 2012 at 2:38 pm

http://www.ukcolumn.org/article/greek-judge-writes-€82000-personal-debt-banks

LikeLike
12

Rui Ventura on January 31, 2012 at 2:33 pm

Dave explains it so that we can all understand, well, that’s alright then, now we know exactly where we are up to, where we are going to and what the end result will be.

Thanks a bunch.

LikeLike
13

Gemz on January 31, 2012 at 2:25 pm

@Soapy

the German banks bleeding people dry are only doing what any decent, upstanding British bank would have done given half the chance.

LikeLike
14

william on January 31, 2012 at 2:16 pm

Is it a two pronged Panzer attack ,with the troop trains,not just on the home of democracy but also on the people of a country from which Wellington began his great Peninsula war to liberate us from Napoleon,and the French.Look at the Portugese 10 year bond market,16 percent and counting.I am going for a walk,and then I will watch the glorious 5-1 ,1998 international football match,on their turf.

LikeLike
15

Bankrupt Taxpayer on January 31, 2012 at 2:15 pm

But this issue is about controlling the EZ sovereign govts’ fetish for borrowing & spending, not the banks. And as far as I know, no bank has ever loaned money to anybody who didn’t want (or need) to borrow it!

LikeLike
16

Danno on January 31, 2012 at 1:59 pm

I thought I heard the Panzer divisions and the troop trains rumbling through the mountain pass but I may be mistaken. It could have been an avalanche.

LikeLike
17

dermot o'malley on January 31, 2012 at 1:55 pm

BT: “Whatever, 25 countries have signed up to it. Amazing? Perhaps not.”

Not at all. To my mind it’s always been them-v-us, them being European Governments and banks against us, the people. You could count on one hand the number of ranking Euro politicians that have taken a robust stance against the banks since this crisis began.

I said in a comment to a post here several months ago, that if push comes to shove Euro Governments will take the side of banksters against European people if need be, and I believe I have so far been right.

LikeLike
18

oldasiahand on January 31, 2012 at 1:25 pm

Bring it on and take on the Krauts! The military could not be worse than the slimeballs imposed by by the Global Squid.

LikeLike
19

oldasiahand on January 31, 2012 at 1:21 pm

An almost absurdly low figure IMO.

LikeLike
20

Bankrupt Taxpayer on January 31, 2012 at 1:15 pm

@Richard G:
Quite right and as @kfc says, Germany (and also France) were among the first to break that strict rule. The new Fiscal Treaty is intended to have bigger teeth and to be enforceable in law in each member state. ho-ho.

LikeLike
21

kfc1404 on January 31, 2012 at 1:09 pm

Apparently so, and also Germany was the first to break that rule..

LikeLike
22

Jon on January 31, 2012 at 1:08 pm

Why not March 20th minus 6 or less weeks for the paperwork?

LikeLike
23

kfc1404 on January 31, 2012 at 1:01 pm

Well folks the next big twist in the Greek Tragedy is just around the corner, what next, a military coup?

LikeLike
24

Richard G on January 31, 2012 at 1:00 pm

I thought there had been a limit on budget deficit in order to sign up to Euro membership

LikeLike
25

kfc1404 on January 31, 2012 at 12:56 pm

No, surely not, another 3 months?
This won’t hold for 3 months, will it?

LikeLike
26

soap mc tavish on January 31, 2012 at 12:40 pm

which bankers do you mean? The German ones that are bleeding Greece dry?

LikeLike
27

Bankrupt Taxpayer on January 31, 2012 at 12:31 pm

@Carys:
“What is an ‘irrevocable law’?”

Good question. But Merkel was quite clear about this.
Maybe some EZ members can introduce new laws which are permanently binding or achieve the same thing by making changes to their constitution. But IME constitutions can only be changed by a large majority vote of ‘the people’ but can be reversed in the future by another vote by ‘the people’.

The sad thing is that such a change which seeks to limit profligate govts is a good thing (I have always advocated such a limit on UK Govts), it’s just the way being used to do it.

LikeLike
28

Gemz on January 31, 2012 at 12:26 pm

@Mick C

would you prefer an aristo with a concept – or bankers with none? – and no morals to boot.

LikeLike
29

Carys on January 31, 2012 at 12:17 pm

See the date of the French election. It’s 22 April (1st round) with another round later if needed. We are in ‘stall until ready’ mode until then, so only another 3 months or so of this will be needed. This happens, of course, because we other EU members have allowed Merkel and Sarkozy to seize leadership, for reasons that for me remain unclear, at least in Sarkozy’s case. But it is clear that they are in charge and nobody else counts in policy terms. Perhaps the utterly hopeless Cameron might mention that we are one of the few net contributors? Or is that also irrelevant? Time for hardball is coming, Clegg or no Clegg.

LikeLike
30

MickC on January 31, 2012 at 12:14 pm

Hmm-the problem with the German aristocracy was that their concept of a state was also authoritarian -but they would be the authority.

LikeLike
31

groundedkiwi on January 31, 2012 at 12:09 pm

I did not spell that site corectly. It is oathkeepers.org

LikeLike
32

Carys on January 31, 2012 at 12:09 pm

What is an ‘irrevocable law’? In the UK we have a doctrine of no parliament being able to irrevocably bind its successors. That seems pretty obvious to me, people and circumstances change, sometimes radically.

And most of the EU countries are simply sheep, their representatives will sign anything so that their (personal and country) EU income keeps coming. No surprises there.

LikeLike
33

Bankrupt Taxpayer on January 31, 2012 at 11:57 am

At his post EU summit press conference last night, Sarkozy rejected the claim that the EU intended to take control of Greece. I think he casually dismissed the notion of EU crats going to Athens and running the country. I don’t know if this was a play on words by him after bad media coverage or whether the EU elites have rowed back from their original plan to seize control of Greek sovereignty.

But the new Fiscal Treaty (that’s what they called it, not a ‘pact’) does require all EZ members to introduce irrevocable laws or constitutional changes which place a strict limit on budget deficits. According to Merkel in her press conference these must be accountable in law and not changeable by future elected governments of any member state. I’m now wondering ‘who’ in these member states have the power to change their constitutions? The politicians or the people?

Whatever, 25 countries have signed up to it. Amazing? Perhaps not.

LikeLike
34

groundedkiwi on January 31, 2012 at 11:52 am

JW Did you know your blog is worth 34 thousand pounds. No pound sign on my keyboard. According to a site called url spy it gives your url rankings.

LikeLike
35

groundedkiwi on January 31, 2012 at 11:41 am

A critical point seems to be building up in the USA after congress passed the NDAA. Asite called oathkepers.org run by vets and various military types is gaining momentum with new members joining inprotest of the NDAA.

LikeLike
36

william on January 31, 2012 at 11:41 am

Ignore Merkel.Germany has produced some true heroes.The book is called ‘Diary of a man in despair’,Friedrich Reck-Malleczewen,an aristocrat murdered in the final days of WW11.

LikeLike
37

cronshd on January 31, 2012 at 11:25 am

“We are rapidly approaching a critical point.”

Any idea when that point might be reached? Next 2 weeks? April?

Is it the case that the Germans are effectively forcing Greece into a position where it would end up leaving the Euro? (And that in fact that is the desired outcome from a German perspective).

LikeLike